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  1. #251
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm wondering if there might be a missing part of the picture, here. These examples seem to be typical ways that IT guys interact with each other: "You're doing it wrong." "Well, I guess that could work, but it would be way better to do it like this." "That code sucks. Why would you write something like that?"

    These are just arbitrary made-up examples, but a lot of communication between IT peers is like this. It's not exactly combative, but you have a lot of really smart people who are used to being the smartest person in the room for most of their lives, and wherever there is any kind of disagreement about some technical topic, the words tend to be very blunt, and because they're used to being almost always right, they tend to have a bit of "expert-itis", where even though they aren't an expert, they'll talk like they are, and one is often hard-pressed to demonstrate to them that they're wrong about something even given incontrovertible evidence.

    E.g.,

    Ha, I like xkcd.

    That's an interesting point, uumlau. What immediately occurs to me is that sort of communication flies in the face of traditional female-style communication - collaborative, feelings-oriented, permissive, self-abnegating, and responsibility-shouldering. While all women will clearly not always communicate in this way, I don't think we are often encouraged to be (or well-received when we are) competitive and critical in our interactions. It may create a vicious cycle of miscommunication.

  2. #252
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Ha, I like xkcd.

    That's an interesting point, uumlau. What immediately occurs to me is that sort of communication flies in the face of traditional female-style communication - collaborative, feelings-oriented, permissive, self-abnegating, and responsibility-shouldering. While all women will clearly not always communicate in this way, I don't think we are often encouraged to be (or well-received when we are) competitive and critical in our interactions. It may create a vicious cycle of miscommunication.
    Yes.

    And to be more clear, I have been treated as you describe by (very smart) individuals with IQs a standard deviation more or less below mine. Once you get into that rarefied 95% or higher percentile of smarts, the 95.1%-ers think they're as smart or smarter than the 99.5%-ers. To be clear, they have no reason to believe otherwise. 5% of your experience vs 95%, plus plenty of confirmation bias to believe that those 5% don't know what they're talking about. There just aren't enough data points in normal everyday experience to contradict this kind of self-perception.

    Similarly, I run into the same thing on INTJf, where all those INTJs and INTPs are so sure that they understand everything better than everyone else. It isn't a sexist thing, it's totally a personal intellectual-inferiority-complex thing. Or a Dunning-Kroger thing, albeit at the high end of the competency scale.

    Interestingly, when I was in an environment where everyone was at that 95%+ level of smarts, no one talked down to each other like that. They were still brutally honest and direct, for sure, but they generally assumed that their peers knew what they were talking about. In the everyday work world I experience, that 5% vs 95% factor comes into play all that time, especially with IT types. And thus because 95% of the people in their experience don't know what they're talking about (relative to themselves), they tend to talk down to them and (ironically) each other.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  3. #253
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
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  4. #254
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Interestingly, when I was in an environment where everyone was at that 95%+ level of smarts, no one talked down to each other like that. They were still brutally honest and direct, for sure, but they generally assumed that their peers knew what they were talking about. In the everyday work world I experience, that 5% vs 95% factor comes into play all that time, especially with IT types. And thus because 95% of the people in their experience don't know what they're talking about (relative to themselves), they tend to talk down to them and (ironically) each other.
    I work at a place like that. People don't talk down to each other. All they care about is competence and what you produce/deliver. It's a very diplomatic culture. I'm in IT consulting and the hours and the travel can take a toll. Though many men and women ultimately leave for lifestyle reasons, the percentage of women that leave before they make partner is higher. That's bad. It's important to have a diverse workforce because our clients have diverse workforces. Because of this, competent women have something of an advantage career wise if they stick with it.

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  5. #255
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Oh, good grief. I have come to the conclusion that NOTHING associated with Barbie can be good. This just reinforces it.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The book was not written by a man, but a female computer professional ("editor and usability designer specializing in linguistic usability"):

    https://abcnews.go.com/Business/barb...ry?id=27021301
    Just goes to show that women can be part of the problem, too.

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I'm wondering if there might be a missing part of the picture, here. These examples seem to be typical ways that IT guys interact with each other: "You're doing it wrong." "Well, I guess that could work, but it would be way better to do it like this." "That code sucks. Why would you write something like that?"

    These are just arbitrary made-up examples, but a lot of communication between IT peers is like this. It's not exactly combative, but you have a lot of really smart people who are used to being the smartest person in the room for most of their lives, and wherever there is any kind of disagreement about some technical topic, the words tend to be very blunt, and because they're used to being almost always right, they tend to have a bit of "expert-itis", where even though they aren't an expert, they'll talk like they are, and one is often hard-pressed to demonstrate to them that they're wrong about something even given incontrovertible evidence.
    What you are describing is how typical IT guys try to correct each other, not when they do it. I doubt the man in Skylights' story would have taken the cable from her had she been a man. It would have taken a higher threshold for him to interfere and tell another man he was doing something "wrong".

    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Interestingly, when I was in an environment where everyone was at that 95%+ level of smarts, no one talked down to each other like that. They were still brutally honest and direct, for sure, but they generally assumed that their peers knew what they were talking about. In the everyday work world I experience, that 5% vs 95% factor comes into play all that time, especially with IT types. And thus because 95% of the people in their experience don't know what they're talking about (relative to themselves), they tend to talk down to them and (ironically) each other.
    I suspect most of the folks in my workplace would fall within what you call the 5% here. Our general manner of interaction is like this: brutally honest, no-holds-barred, laced with sarcasm and needling each other, but grounded in a fundamental respect for each other, our knowledge and abilities. (We did have an INFP for awhile who found it hard to take.) I have never had any issue with being heard, acknowledged, or respected in a professional setting.

    I do notice that the guys will often offer to do things for me that they wouldn't offer to another guy - say lift a piece of equipment onto the table, or carry a box to the other side of the building, even if it is well within my ability to do it. I will usually decline by saying "not necessary, but thanks". (Of course when I do need help, I ask. ) It is rare that someone tries to pull something on me like the VGA cable incident, but if they do, I usually find a way to put them in their place. IME, that sort of "everyday sexism" needs a low-key but immediate response.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #256
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The book was not written by a man, but a female computer professional ("editor and usability designer specializing in linguistic usability"):

    https://abcnews.go.com/Business/barb...ry?id=27021301
    I'm sure she's already been accused of 'internalized misogyny'.

  7. #257
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I'm sure she's already been accused of 'internalized misogyny'.
    I guess one could use a term like that. But you don't have to. A woman is not, by way of being a woman, incapable of writing stupid crap in regards to gender roles.
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  8. #258
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I guess one could use a term like that. But you don't have to. A woman is not, by way of being a woman, incapable of writing stupid crap in regards to gender roles.
    I agree.

    I just think its interesting how it seems third-wave feminists are more likely to deny agency to women who disagree with them than, say, Southern Baptists.

    And yeah, I'm still annoyed by that internet freak-out over a tacky shirt during a great scientific accomplishment in the name of feminism.

  9. #259
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    I agree.

    I just think its interesting how it seems third-wave feminists are more likely to deny agency to women who disagree with them than, say, Southern Baptists.

    And yeah, I'm still annoyed by that internet freak-out over a tacky shirt during a great scientific accomplishment in the name of feminism.
    Its an academic struggle for relevance, the "soft sciences" couldnt let the "hard sciences" have their moment.

    The greatest thing I saw in the aftermath of it all was the photoshopping of the Kardashian woman's pic of her butt onto the shirt just to further befuddle and confuse the whole question of who is objectifying who etc.

  10. #260
    failed poetry slam career chubber's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Oh, good grief. I have come to the conclusion that NOTHING associated with Barbie can be good. This just reinforces it. I do notice that the guys will often offer to do things for me that they wouldn't offer to another guy - say lift a piece of equipment onto the table, or carry a box to the other side of the building, even if it is well within my ability to do it. I will usually decline by saying "not necessary, but thanks". (Of course when I do need help, I ask. ) It is rare that someone tries to pull something on me like the VGA cable incident, but if they do, I usually find a way to put them in their place. IME, that sort of "everyday sexism" needs a low-key but immediate response.
    I only help the elderly, that would be old 75 women not asking to carry their goods. Would be great if more females can not be offended and stop using it as some kind of social interaction thing to get me to talk to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Just today I was plugging a VGA cable back into a computer's system unit and monitor after having used it to test another computer that was having monitor issues. After I had plugged the one end into the monitor and was feeling around the back of the system unit for the port, a friendly middle-aged man came over, practically took the cable from my hand, and began telling me about how to plug in a VGA cable ("you'll always have it facing the wrong direction on the first try" - actually you won't if you look at/feel the port and cable end first, but whatever) while attempting to plug the cable into the monitor where I already had it plugged in.

    It's stuff like this that bugs me, though it seems to reach from IT to STEM to the rest of life to some extent.
    Well it used to be called D-SUB or DE-15... see what I did there I just corrected you D-SUB can be more than just a 15 pin (jerking your chain)

    And I would have taken the cable or tell you what you've been doing even if you didn't ask for it, even if you were a guy. 'Cause seeing a person mangling a 15 pin like that is pure torture to me.

    You probably didn't mangle it

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