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  1. #241
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  2. #242
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Admittedly, this is off-topic. Feel free to ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Do they? This is incompatible with the idea, touted by several in this thread, that men are expected to support families. Presumably most single men don't anticipate remaining single indefinitely.
    More single men are waiting until later in life to get married, or are deciding not to get married at all. Earning more money to support a future family isn't a driving motivation for these guys, or doesn't become one until later in life.

    Isn't it a pretty accepted statistic that married men earn more than their single counterparts? That certainly is compatible with the idea.

    It's also incompatible with the data that suggest men are more aggressive when it comes to demanding higher pay.
    Why? Lots of men find negotiation to be fun or at least interesting... a reward in itself. I'm not familiar with the data, so I don't know what affect, if any, married men have on the data of comparing men with women.

  3. #243
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Men both care less about what they earn AND care more?

    I disagree with your original premise. I don't think you can divide ambition along gender lines in the way you propose. There are single men and women who work to live and there are others who live to work.
    The great thing about IT, for me (probably the only good thing) is that I only need to work 3 mths a year to live comfortably (by my standards). That has a lot to recommend it.

    Edit. @ThatsWhatHeSaid
    Check out post #241. You know it makes sense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #244
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    ^Men both care less about what they earn AND care more?
    That's actually a pretty common pattern with men... we are more likely to be found in greater numbers at both the very top and the very bottom when compared to women.

    I disagree with your original premise. I don't think you can divide ambition along gender lines in the way you propose. There are single men and women who work to live and there are others who live to work.
    Okay, I'll concede this because I can't back it up, and I don't think it's the overriding factor in regards to the original topic anyway. When it comes to women leaving IT, I'm actually more interested in the fact that women were gaining ground, but are now leaving while fewer are getting into it. Why the change? As I dig deeper, that's what I'm really focusing on...

  5. #245
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    First of all, your assumption that working women all should / do have to work 2 jobs is offensive, yet revealing. I'm guessing if you had the chance to employ a man or a woman you'd choose the man, because you're going to assume he won't be distracted by his "other job." If you don't understand how your presumptions prejudice you, maybe you should think about that for a while.
    Working women should not have to shoulder the bulk of the responsibilities at home, but the fact is that they still do it far more than men. I would give every woman (and man) the benefit of the doubt and not consider this in hiring or promotion. Both in my organization, however, and especially among friends, neighbors, and relatives, I see married women routinely taking more time off work to deal with family issues, and generally displaying less commitment to their careers. This is not as it should be, but sadly how it still is. Every woman who behaves otherwise sets the example and helps to change this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I don't know if that is the explanation. From reviewing the literature, and from my gut, I would say that probably the main reason is that girls are just not encouraged to pursue IT as a career. They intuit (correctly) that it's not a field that will welcome them. They don't see enough role models and don't have access to mentors. They don't really understand what it's all about and don't prioritise it as a career choice. If they get their first exposure by dabbling about online, they are going to encounter a culture that is broadly misogynistic and exploitative of women and girls, which might be enough to crush any budding interest.

    For those who enter the profession and leave, discrimination cannot be discounted. Women are more likely to be passed over for promotion and given less interesting work. This is merely an extension of the general bias that "IT is not women's work". Beyond that, sexual harassment happens in every field, sorry, that's just a fact. And if you are one of only a tiny minority of women in a given field, statistics dictate you are going to be more likely to face it (since there are fewer women to share the burden). This is simple logic, before we say anything about the specific characteristics of men in IT. Men in female-dominated fields are likely to face the same thing.
    All this applies to most other STEM fields as well, so why the disparity, and especially the decline, in IT?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    IT people are known for being socially retarded, it's not a stretch to suppose that they treat others with less respect than might be encountered in other professions.
    Again, people say the same thing about physicists, but the number of women in this field keeps going slowly up, without any sudden decline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I'm not confused, though. You are. And I'm not about to spoon-feed you answers that are readily available in the material I've already cited because you're too lazy to do the work.

    Fail. All I commented on was your knee-jerk reaction to everything I post. But talking of mind-reading, what are my motivations for starting this thread, in your view? And what are yours for being so consistently antagonistic towards me? (This is not the first time both myself and others have noticed your bizarre attitude towards me.)

    I'm not even sure why you take such an active interest in this thread, unrelated as it is to your own experience. I think you've added nothing but your own unhelpful confusion over what are really pretty uncomplicated concepts.
    I have explained my interest. Since you consider pointing someone toward information to be unnecessary spoonfeeding, I will leave you to review those posts yourself. I am not going to speculate about your motivations. I do not claim to know what is in your mind, which is why I asked for an explanation. I'm not the only one who has remarked on the gratuitous rudeness of your posting manner (you started a thread on it yourself). I generally overlook it, however, because there are usually some gems in the dung heap.

    Now, to summarize:

    There are two issues related to the representation of women in IT.

    1. The low representation of women in IT compared with other STEM jobs.
    2. The noticeable decrease in women in IT in the early 90's, which is not seen in other STEM fields.


    Factors suggested so far include (feel free to add, anyone):

    1. Environment hostile to women due to discrimination, and harrassment.
    2. Lack of interest by women in IT (little encouragement, few role models).
    3. "Dumbing down" of the field, attracting men with poorer social skills and/or less progressive views of women (related to factor 1, but possibly explaining the decline)
    4. The demanding nature of the job (long hours, much overtime), which causes more women than men to reject or abandon it as a career due to family obligations.

    (1) and (2) are not unique to IT, and it is debatable whether (4) is as well. Only (3) relates to the observed decline in women in IT, but not everyone's IT experience supports this theory. So, are we any closer to explanations???
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  6. #246
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Finally! People are talking about this. And some of the discussion actually manages to be rational.

    Women are making things happen: Ada Initiative.

    Men are finally noticing what's wrong with the status quo. Diversity still an issue in 2013

    It's great to see that not everyone in the industry lives in denial (unlike the INTJs in this thread).

    Though...one has to wonder why the go to spokesperson for female equality in IT .. is a man.
    It's like living in the 19th century.
    Nevertheless, this is a heartening piece by Aral Balkan: http://aralbalkan.com/notes/on-false...and-diversity/

    If anything, the people who annoy me most on this subject are the ones who tell you to shut up about it. These men and women are happy with the status quo. They play by its rules and it works for them. Good for them. We, who are unhappy with the status quo, have as much right to voice our opinions as they do. So, whatever you do, don’t you dare tell me to shut up about it. I couldn’t care less if you’re ‘sick of hearing about it’. You will keep hearing about it until it changes. We’re not just talking about it either, we are working to change it. And if you’re standing in our way, don’t be surprised when you soon find yourself on the wrong side of history. I want to see this change as much as anyone. I am a boy but I hate the boys’ club — it’s outmoded, greasy, and it stinks.

    In my article on The Male Gaze, last year, I concluded with the following thoughts, which I feel bear repeating:

    I believe in equality–regardless of sex, gender, sexual orientation, skin colour, etc. I want to live in a world where, as a white, heterosexual male, I have no special privileges. And, I’m happy to use whatever privileges I may have today to help achieve that goal.

    But I’ll leave the last word to Martin Belam, who makes a poignant point about why making a fuss about all this is so important:

    If my daughter grows up and wants to go into tech, and is still faced with events where organisers think it is OK to have 22 male speakers out of a possible 22 speakers, she’ll be entitled to turn around to me and ask why I didn’t make a fuss when I could.
    Maybe it has to be said by men. If a woman wrote that she'd be called "hysterical" a "feminazi" or worse.

    The evident bias in the industry at large, and at conferences, in particular, has led to an initiative called "The Pledge", wherein speakers are asked to boycott conferences where no women are invited to speak.

    Is that going too far? I don't know. I think when it leads to the cancellation of conferences, maybe it is. Who benefits from that? That makes me uneasy. I don't like to think the diversity police can stop people setting their own agenda. At the same time, the agenda must change. At least it will make people think more about their unconscious biases (although in all likelihood they will cling to them and drive them even deeper underground).

    It even got a mention on radio 4 "Woman's Hour" (yes, they give us a whole hour in every 24) this am, although, ironically, (or not) no women were invited to participate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #247
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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  8. #248
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    The book was not written by a man, but a female computer professional ("editor and usability designer specializing in linguistic usability"):

    https://abcnews.go.com/Business/barb...ry?id=27021301
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  9. #249
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Anecdotal:

    I have a female friend in IT... her main complaint that I have heard is that a lot of her male peers tend to talk down to her even though she clearly knows more about certain specific issues than they do, having experienced and resolved many of them herself where they have not. They still evidently feel the need to seem "dominant", even though it would be to their advantage to shut up and listen to her once in a while.

    Just today I was plugging a VGA cable back into a computer's system unit and monitor after having used it to test another computer that was having monitor issues. After I had plugged the one end into the monitor and was feeling around the back of the system unit for the port, a friendly middle-aged man came over, practically took the cable from my hand, and began telling me about how to plug in a VGA cable ("you'll always have it facing the wrong direction on the first try" - actually you won't if you look at/feel the port and cable end first, but whatever) while attempting to plug the cable into the monitor where I already had it plugged in.

    It's stuff like this that bugs me, though it seems to reach from IT to STEM to the rest of life to some extent.

  10. #250
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    Anecdotal:

    I have a female friend in IT... her main complaint that I have heard is that a lot of her male peers tend to talk down to her even though she clearly knows more about certain specific issues than they do, having experienced and resolved many of them herself where they have not. They still evidently feel the need to seem "dominant", even though it would be to their advantage to shut up and listen to her once in a while.

    Just today I was plugging a VGA cable back into a computer's system unit and monitor after having used it to test another computer that was having monitor issues. After I had plugged the one end into the monitor and was feeling around the back of the system unit for the port, a friendly middle-aged man came over, practically took the cable from my hand, and began telling me about how to plug in a VGA cable ("you'll always have it facing the wrong direction on the first try" - actually you won't if you look at/feel the port and cable end first, but whatever) while attempting to plug the cable into the monitor where I already had it plugged in.

    It's stuff like this that bugs me, though it seems to reach from IT to STEM to the rest of life to some extent.
    I'm wondering if there might be a missing part of the picture, here. These examples seem to be typical ways that IT guys interact with each other: "You're doing it wrong." "Well, I guess that could work, but it would be way better to do it like this." "That code sucks. Why would you write something like that?"

    These are just arbitrary made-up examples, but a lot of communication between IT peers is like this. It's not exactly combative, but you have a lot of really smart people who are used to being the smartest person in the room for most of their lives, and wherever there is any kind of disagreement about some technical topic, the words tend to be very blunt, and because they're used to being almost always right, they tend to have a bit of "expert-itis", where even though they aren't an expert, they'll talk like they are, and one is often hard-pressed to demonstrate to them that they're wrong about something even given incontrovertible evidence.

    E.g.,

    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

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