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  1. #231
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    First of all, your assumption that working women all should / do have to work 2 jobs is offensive, yet revealing.
    This is nonsense. I have stated this NOWHERE.

    I'm guessing if you had the chance to employ a man or a woman you'd choose the man, because you're going to assume he won't be distracted by his "other job." If you don't understand how your presumptions prejudice you, maybe you should think about that for a while.
    Right back at you!

    This is nonsense. I have stated this NOWHERE. I have been trying to get at the root of the disparity. If you are asking what I think, (instead of assuming) I confess I haven't actually spent much time thinking about it.
    Fair enough.


    I was shocked by the article in the OP. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been given my own experiences. I suppose it has always been my assumption that the answer lies in the first question I raised - lack of interest. I have spent my whole life interested in things which don't seem to interest most women and disinterested in things that do. So I suppose it was a natural assumption for me to slip into, however wrong I might have been. Also, given my nature, it's difficult for me to empathise with women who might feel intimidated by the macho culture of IT. I really haven't given it much thought until recently. And if I haven't, you can be sure the vast majority of people in IT haven't either.
    Actually, I don't think it's "intimidation" so much as lack of interest, as you put it.


    BS. In fact, you are dismissing it because you find it unpalatable. You probably haven't even processed anything the women in the thread have said. You've made up your mind and that's that. Much like highlander. You choose to attack my intellectual integrity, rather than face an inconvenient truth. With men like you in the industry, what hope can there be for reform? Rather depressing.
    Nope, you aren't making any assumptions at all. It's nice to see such objectivity on this forum.

    I welcome any and all explanations. But if they don't accord with what I know of the industry, I will challenge them. And you are just wrong to suggest that there are less women in IT because it is the most demanding career imaginable. Spectacularly, laughably wrong.
    Oh, yeah, that's right ... I said it's the most demanding career imaginable. Nope, no straw men, here.

    I don't know if that is the explanation. From reviewing the literature, and from my gut, I would say that probably the main reason is that girls are just not encouraged to pursue IT as a career. They intuit (correctly) that it's not a field that will welcome them. They don't see enough role models and don't have access to mentors. They don't really understand what it's all about and don't prioritise it as a career choice. If they get their first exposure by dabbling about online, they are going to encounter a culture that is broadly misogynistic and exploitative of women and girls, which might be enough to crush any budding interest.
    Exploitative? Really?



    For those who enter the profession and leave, discrimination cannot be discounted. Women are more likely to be passed over for promotion and given less interesting work. This is merely an extension of the general bias that "IT is not women's work". Beyond that, sexual harassment happens in every field, sorry, that's just a fact. And if you are one of only a tiny minority of women in a given field, statistics dictate you are going to be more likely to face it (since there are fewer women to share the burden). This is simple logic, before we say anything about the specific characteristics of men in IT. Men in female-dominated fields are likely to face the same thing.
    Promotion? That's your metric? In general, one doesn't get promoted, because someone else already has the job. One gets get hired somewhere else to fill a much better position.

    And what makes you think your experience is more representative?
    You're a permie, yes? Employed by the same organisation for many years? I contract. I might work for half a dozen organisations in a year, in different countries. I know where-of I speak. Flexibility varies by country, by sector, and by organisation, however, I maintain that IT is very flexible. More and more people work remotely. In fact, I don't know any organisation that has people on call without providing remote access. People job-share frequently. Several of the women I know work part-time so that they can look after children. So do some of the men.
    And what makes you think your experience is more representative?

    What you have to ask yourself is whether this is relevant to the question under discussion. I don't think you can make that argument convincingly.
    Here's a list if the most/least stressful jobs according to APA.
    http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/busi...-in-2012/21028
    No IT proper in there. Although the job which is the closest fit, comes LAST. Haha!
    I think you've been spoilt. Like I say, most IT nerds wouldn't last 5 mins in a REALLY stressful job.
    Straw man.

    Stop misrepresenting me, you only make yourself look bad.
    Oh, no! I might look bad?

    IT people are known for being socially retarded, it's not a stretch to suppose that they treat others with less respect than might be encountered in other professions.
    A fair point.

    That's almost the opposite of what's been said in this thread. At the lower end (IT support) you find pretty normal people. Anti-social behaviour isnt tolerated because people are easily replaced. These also tend to be customer-facing jobs which require a minimum level of professionalism. Small start-ups and public-sector jobs are also more female-friendly, because lower status, less well-paid.

    What you find is that the really brilliant people (who are few and far between) get away with acting like complete assholes because they are so difficult to replace. Everyone in IT knows a few of these guys, and they make life difficult for everyone, not just women (though they often have antediluvian ideas about women too). They also frequently set the tone in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.
    Again, a fair point, but it applies to all professions, not just IT. See "The No Asshole Rule": http://www.amazon.com/Asshole-Rule-C.../dp/0446698202

    FWIW, I agree with the thesis.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  2. #232
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    I see the confusion. There are two different studies, but the first by the National Center for Women and Information Technology (quoted in the article linked in post 201) heavily references the second by the Center for Work-Life Policy (referenced in post 205).

    Now, you could have replied by pointing out the connection. That would have saved time and kept the focus on topic.
    I'm not confused, though. You are. And I'm not about to spoon-feed you answers that are readily available in the material I've already cited because you're too lazy to do the work.

    Instead, you chose to resort to mischaracterizations, unsuccessful mindreading, and some rather pathetic insults. This is what causes me to question your motivations. Someone interested in understanding the topic would have clarified the references, perhaps addressed my specific comments, and moved on.
    Fail. All I commented on was your knee-jerk reaction to everything I post. But talking of mind-reading, what are my motivations for starting this thread, in your view? And what are yours for being so consistently antagonistic towards me? (This is not the first time both myself and others have noticed your bizarre attitude towards me.)

    I'm not even sure why you take such an active interest in this thread, unrelated as it is to your own experience. I think you've added nothing but your own unhelpful confusion over what are really pretty uncomplicated concepts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #233
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Oh, wait, I know the kind of guy you're talking about...
    That's the one.
    Practically unemployable outside his own very narrow domain of interest, and therefore deeply defensive of it. A big problem is how intimidated non-techie managers and HR people are of these types. They don't understand that they actually create far more problems than they solve.

    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Want to swap?
    You couldn't handle the stress!!
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    This is nonsense. I have stated this NOWHERE
    Ah, but you did.
    Right back at you!
    This makes no sense... You think I wouldn't employ a woman preferentially? You think I would?

    Oh, yeah, that's right ... I said it's the most demanding career imaginable. Nope, no straw men, here.
    You suggested that it's more demanding than other careers. You are wrong to do so.
    Actually, I don't think it's "intimidation"
    It doesn't matter what you think, you're not the one being intimidated.
    Exploitative? Really?
    Try joining a chat room as a woman. Then get back to me.
    Things have definitely changed, but online culture is rooted in the misogynistic hang ups of socially-retarded adolescent boys. Take a look at the origins of Facebook. (And that's the acceptable face of the culture.)

    Promotion? That's your metric?
    No, it's not. I've given you a bunch of metrics.
    In general, one doesn't get promoted, because someone else already has the job. One gets get hired somewhere else to fill a much better position.
    You've never been promoted? You do surprise me.

    And what makes you think your experience is more representative?
    1. It's broader
    2. I has vagina
    Strawman
    Jesus. You guys suck at logic. How did you manage to get IT jobs?
    Let me spell it out for you:
    Unless you can demonstrate that IT is a more stressful / demanding occupation than others which have higher female representation, whether it's stressful or not is COMPLETELY irrelevant.
    That's before we even address the implied sexist assumption that women can't handle stress or need to be more available for offspring.

    Oh, no! I might look bad?
    Not addressed to you, but if the cap fits...

    FWIW, I agree with the thesis.
    Which one?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #234
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    You couldn't handle the stress!!
    Very true! Id come running out crying on day one and proclaim: Salome! How do you do this?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #235
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Very true! Id come running out crying on day one and proclaim: Salome! How do you do this?
    Your faith in me is touching.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #236
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's the one.
    Practically unemployable outside his own very narrow domain of interest, and therefore deeply defensive of it. A big problem is how intimidated non-techie managers and HR people are of these types. They don't understand that they actually create far more problems than they solve.
    Yeah. You know, now that I know this is a larger social problem within the IT community, and that it wasn't just some isolated incident that happened because I employed people I found online, it really makes me want to do something about it. It gives me ideas for topics, and I'll try to bring it up in various places. Perfect topic for that sociology/technology site that focuses on Internet culture.

    I also must say that I have a lot of respect for you coming out and saying how you feel about this, and it gives me more hope that these kind of situations can be resolved, and that people even WANT them resolved. That ENFP girl who would only complain to me in private, but would defend the people abusing/insulting her in public as "joking," and the fact that she insisted that she was just "being agreeable" by doing this and that she didn't have a problem, was incredibly frustrating and depressing.

    You made me feel like I actually did the right thing by getting rid of that guy (which she's never done), and like someone actually cares about the right thing being done.

  7. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The "discrimination" explanation fits your worldview, and you appear to be engaging in confirmation bias with every story that points at discrimination as an explanation, never presenting other possible causes or scenarios.
    Well yea...

  8. #238
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ^Aw! You still following me around kitten?
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    In such situations, those men may actually be deliberately trying to make the women uncomfortable because they feel threatened by them. This may be in part due to the economic situation... they're acting this way to drive the women out because they're subconsciously afraid they couldn't compete with women and that their jobs would be in jeopardy if they had to worry about it, and acting in this way both helps them feel confident/superior, and mitigates the underlying fear of having their jobs taken by women.
    This happens. It has happened to me. Though I doubt most men are seriously concerned about women being their superiors. Most of them seem amazed that someone with breasts could have any idea what she's talking about, truth be told.

    I don't mean to say that most men in IT would act this way, or that many corporations condone it. But you have to take into account less professional operations and smaller companies in less populated areas, where many people get their start. Now, if you get a job in a major city with a good corporate policy on these things, or a government job... I'm sure it's rarely an issue.
    I wouldn't be so sure. In fact, the "old boy" mentality is much stronger within big blue-chip orgs. You also find that as new companies get more established and profitable, the women are driven out. Take a look at Google, for example.

    Now, I found that these guys were the type that constantly make dick jokes, look at anime porn, and just generally don't have a lot of class. I thought it was just a personality thing, though. But what got to me eventually was that they kept picking on the ENFP girl, making weird sexual jokes about her. She wouldn't say anything, but would just kind of go silent or post somewhere else for while. Eventually she wasn't contributing much to the project. I didn't do anything about it at first, because the guy I had appointed (who was generally regarded as the leader) told me that "she said she likes it, don't worry about it," and I was like, "these people are sick/weird, whatever, as long as they behave themselves and follow my rules when it comes to the website."

    Turned out later on, that she actually did have a problem with it, but was afraid to say anything about it. In fact, she would complain to me in private, but if anyone scolded them in public, she'd defend them in saying it was "just a joke." It was like Stockholm Syndrome or something. The other weird thing is that the ISTJ lady would sometimes join in with the teasing/abuse, and was accepted as one of them.
    Couple of things. First of all, women keep quiet because they already feel they are on the boys "turf" and they'd better fit in or they'll be kicked out.
    Second, the boys are idiots with total inability to empathise. They aren't necessarily trying to be assholes, they just don't know any better. Maybe that's too generous an interpretation, but I've met some really bright and otherwise decent guys who just have absolutely no clue about appropriate boundaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Yeah. You know, now that I know this is a larger social problem within the IT community, and that it wasn't just some isolated incident that happened because I employed people I found online, it really makes me want to do something about it. It gives me ideas for topics, and I'll try to bring it up in various places. Perfect topic for that sociology/technology site that focuses on Internet culture.

    I also must say that I have a lot of respect for you coming out and saying how you feel about this, and it gives me more hope that these kind of situations can be resolved, and that people even WANT them resolved. That ENFP girl who would only complain to me in private, but would defend the people abusing/insulting her in public as "joking," and the fact that she insisted that she was just "being agreeable" by doing this and that she didn't have a problem, was incredibly frustrating and depressing.

    You made me feel like I actually did the right thing by getting rid of that guy (which she's never done), and like someone actually cares about the right thing being done.
    I have the advantage of generally not giving a fuck what anyone thinks, so it's really not a big deal for me. I'm not doing anything to counteract it though. I don't actively support women's organisations or do any kind of campaigning or mentoring, so no respect is due.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #239
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    What was that?

    It's tough to hear through the walls of your echo chamber.

  10. #240
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    You mean through your own cloth cap?

    I don't doubt it.

    Don't worry your pretty little head about it. I doubt you'd be able to understand even if you could hear/read.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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