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  1. #221
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But the point of that story is, that INFJ was learning Java in school and used things like Tor all the time. He was definitely a nerd headed towards an IT career. He definitely fit the profile of a geek-bully with horrible attitudes towards women, and I got the impression there are whole communities of people like him. I don't know how many of them have abusive girlfriends or mothers... but regardless of that, I do feel that Salome is right to be concerned about men like this in the IT field, because I've seen them.
    Why do men like this gravitate to IT, then, rather than other fields, or even other STEM fields? I am still not understanding why this brand of harrassment at work would be more prevalent in IT.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #222
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Nope. It's the same one mentioned in the article (which contains the link.)

    You are transparently disingenuous. If you are genuinely interested in the topic, as you claim, what possible reason could you have for dragging my motives for starting the thread into the discussion ?
    I see the confusion. There are two different studies, but the first by the National Center for Women and Information Technology (quoted in the article linked in post 201) heavily references the second by the Center for Work-Life Policy (referenced in post 205).

    Now, you could have replied by pointing out the connection. That would have saved time and kept the focus on topic. Instead, you chose to resort to mischaracterizations, unsuccessful mindreading, and some rather pathetic insults. This is what causes me to question your motivations. Someone interested in understanding the topic would have clarified the references, perhaps addressed my specific comments, and moved on.

    The Center for Work-Life Policy's "Athena Factor" study seems to be the one to read. It is extensively cited, but not apparently available online in its entirety. The NCWIT study starts off by highlighting the disparity between IT and other STEM fields, but many of the data presented include all science, engineering, and technology fields rather than IT specifically. It thus sheds little light on the specific decline of women in IT.

    Some specific quotes from the NCWIT study:

    women are excluded implicitly and explicitly from becoming Free Libre Open Source Software (FLOSS) developers, and that their needs as users are not addressed. The author suggests that the long hours necessary for coding, a lack of female role models and mentors, users’ discriminatory language online and offline, the prevalence of text-based coding systems (as opposed to graphic coding environments), and the FLOSS community’s male-centric competitive world-view are all factors hindering women’s participation.
    Aren't most of these factors present in other professions dominated by men?

    Women and people of color often have experiences that shape their lives differently, (e.g., women more often than men have to think about or are asked to explain how they balance work and family responsibilities). These individuals also face different prejudice and inequities. “Treating everyone the same” ignores these realities and the fact that existing workplace conditions do not meet these employees’ needs.
    These realities should not be ignored, but they also should not be encouraged or enabled. Industry has recognized the need to improve STEM education across the board, and specifically for women and minorities. It must similarly recognize that the imbalanced distribution of family and personal responsibilities needs to be corrected as well. Encouraging men to take advantage of flexible schedules, family leave, and other options is an important step.

    Since senior leadership is predominantly male, talent management systems more commonly include masculine stereotypes when characterizing senior leaders, suggesting that masculine norms are embedded in the system.
    Are we associating masculine traits with leadership here, or are we instead associating the qualities of a good leader with men? (A variant of the chicken/egg conundrum.)
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #223
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Why do men like this gravitate to IT, then, rather than other fields, or even other STEM fields? I am still not understanding why this brand of harrassment at work would be more prevalent in IT.
    I'm not certain that they do.

    But if I were to theorize, it's because IT these days doesn't actually require as much intelligence as the other fields in question (much of it is very simple memorized tricks on triggering automated systems, though it is perceived as difficult by most people), and there's a much larger subculture around it. For instance, there's this huge piracy/4chan/anime/porn culture that a ton of anti-social geek bullies get their start in. They maybe a learn a little bit about scripting in order to do some kind of socially unacceptable thing, or get around some filter or block, and then from there they find that they're good at it, and decide to pursue a career in IT.

    There are a lot of distasteful/unethical reasons to learn technical tricks on computers. There's just more stuff you can do to mess with people. I believe that a lot of people who are drawn to IT come from an online culture of people who just like to mess with each other in socially unacceptable ways, and the majority of them tend to be male. And a lot of them likely think their behavior will be more tolerated in IT, due to having met so many people like them that are good with computers, and assuming that many of them probably have jobs in IT.

    Sure, a scientist could concoct a poisonous formula, an engineer could devise a trap... not sure what a mathematician could do, but most of the things THEY could do to people are easier to trace back to them, and they would likely be punished. People who know how to manipulate computer systems can mess with others in all kinds of ways, it's harder to trace, and they often get away with it. This does, unfortunately, attract a certain kind of person.

    Anyway, if it is more common in IT, that's my theory as to why.

  4. #224
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I'm not certain that they do.
    I'm not sure they do, either, but wanted to see your thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But if I were to theorize, it's because IT these days doesn't actually require as much intelligence as the other fields in question (though it is perceived as difficult by most people), and there's a much larger subculture around it. For instance, there's this huge piracy/4chan/anime/porn culture that a ton of anti-social geek bullies get their start in. They maybe a learn a little bit about scripting in order to do some kind of socially unacceptable thing, or get around some filter or block, and then from there they find that they're good at it, and decide to pursue a career in IT.
    This sounds like almost a dumbing-down of the IT profession, in combination with the popularization of certain aspects of computer knowledge, at least within this specific subculture. The several members who have mentioned working in IT environments that do not exhibit this type of harrassment seem also to be describing the "higher end" of IT work, which would fit with your theory.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #225
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Is it because they have no interest?
    Is it because they have no talent?
    Or is it because they don't want to get felt up at conferences?

    https://www.blogher.com/defcon-why-c...tters?page=0,0
    I say: 3rd clause.
    It is funny it is thought to be a male thing.
    Women do better.

  6. #226
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This sounds like almost a dumbing-down of the IT profession, in combination with the popularization of certain aspects of computer knowledge, at least within this specific subculture. The several members who have mentioned working in IT environments that do not exhibit this type of harrassment seem also to be describing the "higher end" of IT work, which would fit with your theory.
    I do feel that this is what has happened, and it would explain why the numbers are getting worse. Back when IT was an emerging field, most of the people in it were innovators, pioneers, people who were really interested in building something new. Now, the majority of people in a corporate IT department don't do anything except install Microsoft Updates, wipe people's computers when they mess them up, replace an occasional part, and all too often just show up to help some senior citizen press CTRL-ALT-DEL, kill a process in Task Manager, and make sure everything is plugged in.

    Even so-called "programmers" are often just paid to churn out fairly simple code, and some of it is fairly common script or code that I just see them copy/pasting from elsewhere with few if any changes. Corporate doesn't know this, those guys never studied it. The use of the word "hack" has been dumbed down quite a bit as well. You would be surprised what gets called "hacking" these days. Sometimes even something like running an application using the Run dialogue to access a switch, or just running a fairly simple script to get something done around a broken program, gets referred to as "hacking."

    I volunteer at a hospital, and I found that a lot of times, the IT department people would say something fairly simple that they wanted done was impossible or difficult, and then I'd find a way to do it. It seemed like all they really did was basic maintenance on broken stuff, and follow lists of procedures, used very technical terms to describe simple processes, and didn't really know what they were doing. The kind of people I see in IT now seem more like lazy auto mechanics than intellectuals.

    It got to the point that the ladies in the department I was volunteering in kept calling me in to fix various people's computers, because the IT guys were unhelpful and rude. It got to the point that I was basically an unpaid technical support person that was on call every weekday, once I showed my knowledge of this stuff. Very exhausting.

    I just remembered a scenario. We were working with Excel files, and one person said, "People keep saving their documents to the template rather than saving it as a new file. Is there any way to make it so that they can't write to the template, and have Excel pop up a dialogue telling them to save it as a new document?" The IT guy said, "Well, I might be able to code some kind of script to do that, or maybe there's a macro, let me look it up..." And I just told everyone to hold on for a moment, I went into the file attributes of the template, and checked the "Read Only" box. He asked, "When did they add that feature?" I just said, "Oh, it comes with Windows." And then I was asked, "Well, that would stop people from writing to it, but what about the dialogue in Excel? How will they know to use the Save As command?" Then I just went into Excel, and opened the template, and tried to save a change. The dialogue box informed them the file was read only, and offered the option of using the Save As command. So I just said, "Excel is already designed to handle read-only templates." I think the IT guy was really upset with me... I saw his face turn red or something. Later, I heard him telling someone that I "used a backdoor to make the templates read-only." Not even kidding.

  7. #227
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But if I were to theorize, it's because IT these days doesn't actually require as much intelligence as the other fields in question (much of it is very simple memorized tricks on triggering automated systems, though it is perceived as difficult by most people), and there's a much larger subculture around it. For instance, there's this huge piracy/4chan/anime/porn culture that a ton of anti-social geek bullies get their start in. They maybe a learn a little bit about scripting in order to do some kind of socially unacceptable thing, or get around some filter or block, and then from there they find that they're good at it, and decide to pursue a career in IT.

    There are a lot of distasteful/unethical reasons to learn technical tricks on computers. There's just more stuff you can do to mess with people. I believe that a lot of people who are drawn to IT come from an online culture of people who just like to mess with each other in socially unacceptable ways, and the majority of them tend to be male. And a lot of them likely think their behavior will be more tolerated in IT, due to having met so many people like them that are good with computers, and assuming that many of them probably have jobs in IT.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This sounds like almost a dumbing-down of the IT profession, in combination with the popularization of certain aspects of computer knowledge, at least within this specific subculture. The several members who have mentioned working in IT environments that do not exhibit this type of harrassment seem also to be describing the "higher end" of IT work, which would fit with your theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    I do feel that this is what has happened, and it would explain why the numbers are getting worse. Back when IT was an emerging field, most of the people in it were innovators, pioneers, people who were really interested in building something new. Now, the majority of people in a corporate IT department don't do anything except install Microsoft Updates, wipe people's computers when they mess them up, replace an occasional part, and all too often just show up to help some senior citizen press CTRL-ALT-DEL, kill a process in Task Manager, and make sure everything is plugged in.

    Even so-called "programmers" are often just paid to churn out fairly simple code, and some of it is fairly common script or code that I just see them copy/pasting from elsewhere with few if any changes. Corporate doesn't know this, those guys never studied it. The use of the word "hack" has been dumbed down quite a bit as well. You would be surprised what gets called "hacking" these days. Sometimes even something like running an application using the Run dialogue to access a switch, or just running a fairly simple script to get something done around a broken program, gets referred to as "hacking."
    Now this sounds like a reasonable hypothesis of how IT could end up with more discriminatory attitudes than other STEM fields. So on the one hand, it's a STEM field, which tends not to attract a lot of women in the first place (for whatever reasons), and on top of that, there are a lot of jobs in IT that are very easy but look hard, and tend to attract antisocial types of people who aren't really all that skilled. In the larger companies I've experienced, the typical IT department situation is that there are one or two guys who are actually good at their jobs, understand what I mean when I explain an IT-style design pattern, and can implement what my dev team needs without hand-holding. The rest really don't have a clue. They know their niche (doing queries on the obscure database, installing software on the network, etc.), and absolutely nothing else. AND you have to hand-hold them when you make a request, because they really don't understand what you mean or what you need at all, even though it's all fairly simple. (And I'm not talking about lack of understanding simply due to missing context, which one filled in they can work independently, but rather that even given full context and explicit steps, still mess things up.)

    At one company I've worked at, I was in the weird situation where the developers were not responsible for actually deploying the software, but IT was, due to various security concerns. The guy with the sole responsibility for the task frequently installed the software incorrectly, even though there was only one set of options to choose (namely which environment, "Test", "Staging", "Production"). Even one of the really smart guys there didn't really recognize the weaknesses of his approach. He explained to me how the database was really quite good and efficient, and THEN told me about how it was kind of scary to work with, because one wrong step could delete a lot of data, or misplace a lot of money. I was incredulous: mission-critical work should be automated and robust, and the database (a rather old but popular one for large institutions) had none of the modern defenses against data corruption. But because this guy really understood how it all worked, things mostly worked right most of the time, and were fixed promptly when they didn't.

    At yet another company (funny how these stories come to mind, now), one guy turned to a new employee and said, "Hey, watch this," then turned to me and asked, "How does a CD ROM drive work?" I explained exactly how it worked, and the two had a great laugh. Why? Neither of them knew how a CD ROM worked. Really.

    OK, enough anecdotes for now.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #228
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    The crux of my argument is that women with children are likely to have demands on their schedule that require more "normal" jobs. It has nothing to do with handling stress, it's handling the stress of work and the stress of children and having to balance to two against each other, which necessarily means opting for jobs that are more convenient with respect to also handling kids. I dunno if you have kids, but while they can often be a pleasure to have around, they don't really take care of themselves until their late teens, and until then a working mother is really working two jobs, one of which is unpaid.
    First of all, your assumption that working women all should / do have to work 2 jobs is offensive, yet revealing. I'm guessing if you had the chance to employ a man or a woman you'd choose the man, because you're going to assume he won't be distracted by his "other job." If you don't understand how your presumptions prejudice you, maybe you should think about that for a while.

    Of course, you can just keep on asserting your thesis that discrimination is the primary factor in the statistics, and cite anecdotal evidence in support of it.
    This is nonsense. I have stated this NOWHERE. I have been trying to get at the root of the disparity. If you are asking what I think, (instead of assuming) I confess I haven't actually spent much time thinking about it. I was shocked by the article in the OP. In retrospect, I shouldn't have been given my own experiences. I suppose it has always been my assumption that the answer lies in the first question I raised - lack of interest. I have spent my whole life interested in things which don't seem to interest most women and disinterested in things that do. So I suppose it was a natural assumption for me to slip into, however wrong I might have been. Also, given my nature, it's difficult for me to empathise with women who might feel intimidated by the macho culture of IT. I really haven't given it much thought until recently. And if I haven't, you can be sure the vast majority of people in IT haven't either.

    The "discrimination" explanation fits your worldview, and you appear to be engaging in confirmation bias with every story that points at discrimination as an explanation, never presenting other possible causes or scenarios.
    BS. In fact, you are dismissing it because you find it unpalatable. You probably haven't even processed anything the women in the thread have said. You've made up your mind and that's that. Much like highlander. You choose to attack my intellectual integrity, rather than face an inconvenient truth. With men like you in the industry, what hope can there be for reform? Rather depressing.
    I welcome any and all explanations. But if they don't accord with what I know of the industry, I will challenge them. And you are just wrong to suggest that there are less women in IT because it is the most demanding career imaginable. Spectacularly, laughably wrong.

    The way you guys are fighting tooth and nail to whitewash the facts, while proposing explanations that defy logic, is in itself revealing and useful though, so thank you for participating.

    If the real explanation is discrimination, why should IT be more discriminatory than any other field? What is it that makes nerdy men in IT more abusive of women than nerdy men in math or physics? Should there be extra laws/rules/regulations in IT to prevent discrimination?
    I don't know if that is the explanation. From reviewing the literature, and from my gut, I would say that probably the main reason is that girls are just not encouraged to pursue IT as a career. They intuit (correctly) that it's not a field that will welcome them. They don't see enough role models and don't have access to mentors. They don't really understand what it's all about and don't prioritise it as a career choice. If they get their first exposure by dabbling about online, they are going to encounter a culture that is broadly misogynistic and exploitative of women and girls, which might be enough to crush any budding interest.

    For those who enter the profession and leave, discrimination cannot be discounted. Women are more likely to be passed over for promotion and given less interesting work. This is merely an extension of the general bias that "IT is not women's work". Beyond that, sexual harassment happens in every field, sorry, that's just a fact. And if you are one of only a tiny minority of women in a given field, statistics dictate you are going to be more likely to face it (since there are fewer women to share the burden). This is simple logic, before we say anything about the specific characteristics of men in IT. Men in female-dominated fields are likely to face the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    Particularly in reference to these points, I think that you may be assuming that all IT positions align with your own experiences. I assure you... they do not. Even in my own experience, the flexible working hours is absolutely *not* true. I have zero flexibility there, nor does anyone in my IT office / organization.
    And what makes you think your experience is more representative?
    You're a permie, yes? Employed by the same organisation for many years? I contract. I might work for half a dozen organisations in a year, in different countries. I know where-of I speak. Flexibility varies by country, by sector, and by organisation, however, I maintain that IT is very flexible. More and more people work remotely. In fact, I don't know any organisation that has people on call without providing remote access. People job-share frequently. Several of the women I know work part-time so that they can look after children. So do some of the men.

    IT can be very stressful.
    What you have to ask yourself is whether this is relevant to the question under discussion. I don't think you can make that argument convincingly.
    Here's a list if the most/least stressful jobs according to APA.
    http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/busi...-in-2012/21028
    No IT proper in there. Although the job which is the closest fit, comes LAST. Haha!
    I think you've been spoilt. Like I say, most IT nerds wouldn't last 5 mins in a REALLY stressful job.

    But I am positive that it's not simply "men in IT treat women like dirt, and that's why women leave IT" -- there are absolutely situations where that's the case... but I think that it's simplistic to assume that it's the only factor involved. Anyway, said my bit.
    Stop misrepresenting me, you only make yourself look bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    But if I were to theorize, it's because IT these days doesn't actually require as much intelligence as the other fields in question (much of it is very simple memorized tricks on triggering automated systems, though it is perceived as difficult by most people), and there's a much larger subculture around it. For instance, there's this huge piracy/4chan/anime/porn culture that a ton of anti-social geek bullies get their start in. They maybe a learn a little bit about scripting in order to do some kind of socially unacceptable thing, or get around some filter or block, and then from there they find that they're good at it, and decide to pursue a career in IT.
    IT people are known for being socially retarded, it's not a stretch to suppose that they treat others with less respect than might be encountered in other professions.

    However, given that you've never worked in IT and think knowing that you can make files read-only through an operating system makes you superior to the average helpdesk hack, doesn't exactly make you an expert on the level of intelligence required. There are idiots working in IT, no question, but that's because the field has expanded faster than any other and there simply aren't enough skilled people to go around. Hence the call from several quarters for more women to enter the field.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The several members who have mentioned working in IT environments that do not exhibit this type of harrassment seem also to be describing the "higher end" of IT work, which would fit with your theory.
    That's almost the opposite of what's been said in this thread. At the lower end (IT support) you find pretty normal people. Anti-social behaviour isn't tolerated because people are easily replaced. These also tend to be customer-facing jobs which require a minimum level of professionalism. Small start-ups and public-sector jobs are also more female-friendly, because lower status, less well-paid.

    What you find is that the really knowledgeable people (who are few and far between) get away with acting like complete assholes because they are so difficult to replace. Everyone in IT knows a few of these guys, and they make life difficult for everyone, not just women (though they often have antediluvian ideas about women too). They also frequently set the tone in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #229
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    A low-paying job is still a job...
    Want to swap?
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  10. #230
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    What you find is that the really brilliant people (who are few and far between) get away with acting like complete assholes because they are so difficult to replace. Everyone in IT knows a few of these guys, and they make life difficult for everyone, not just women (though they often have antediluvian ideas about women too). They also frequently set the tone in subtle and not-so-subtle ways.
    Oh, wait, I know the kind of guy you're talking about...

    http://foredecker.wordpress.com/2011...m-prima-donna/

    We’ve all worked with them at one time or another – the loud, opinioned, argumentative, authoritative, hardworking, smart capable, type A developer. The guy that always seems to have an opinion… on everything. The guy who’s code review feedback is usually something like ‘that code doesn’t look like my code’. They dude who wrote the super-complex-only-he-can-understand-it code your entire product depends on. You know, the code everyone else is forbidden to touch. The code that has no comments because it is all ‘self documenting’. He tells you he doesn’t have time to write comments anyway(1). The guy that must use every esoteric odd language feature he can find because coding it simply is too ‘verbose’. This is the guy that gets loud and upset at the drop of a hat. The guy that has to use the most complex (beautiful he says) algorithm for even the most mundane tasks. They guy that writes his own debugger because existing one just isn’t good enough. The guy that wrote his own domain specific language (using complex regular expressions) because “there was no other way to solve the problem”. They guy that uses LINQ expressions for everything because they are ‘fluent’. They guy that gets impatient when other people can’t instantly understand his code. This is the guy that to fix a bug, works straight through a weekend and completely re-writes a big chunk of code because ‘the code needed to be re-written anyway.’ This is the guy that always expects an ‘A+’ performance review – every single time.

    You know – the team prima donna: a vain, undisciplined, egotistical, obnoxious or temperamental person who finds it difficult to work under direction or as part of a team, and although irritating, cannot be done without.
    Come to think of it, this reminds me of that one guy I hired to be admin because I didn't want to do it myself, and who seemed capable. Problem is, he was one of these, and I didn't need him anyway, although I was reluctant to take charge myself. He wasn't a dumb person by any means, but he didn't do much work without prodding and really wasn't that helpful. So I got rid of him, although if myself and the INTP tech admin weren't equal to him in terms of ingenuity, it would have been a lot tougher.

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