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  1. #211
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    This is a shame, since I find the topic interesting, timely, and important. I have observed the same trends as you, from the perspective of a different STEM discipline, and have been asking myself some of these same questions for years. I would prefer to be able to exchange information and insights with a minimum of extraneous drama, so I can understand the precipitous downtrend in IT better, and perhaps even the lag of physics and engineering behind fields like chemistry and math among careers chosen by women.
    I suspect there is a huge difference between IT and other STEM fields, namely that IT demands long hours, and in most respects is more along the lines of a "mechanics" job, than an engineering or design job. As a software developer, I occasionally need to work late hours, but mostly I'm working normal work days. In contrast, my IT associates who administer the networks and databases are expected to be available 24/7, and if something goes wrong, they get the blame. It's a fairly high paying job, but it has a corresponding stress level that I wouldn't accept for myself. (As a software developer, I'm doing engineering and design, and not a lot of off-hours maintenance.)

    I see no dishonor that a single woman with children might not be able to both handle having a 24/7 job with that amount of stress for very long AND handle her children (which is also a 24/7 job). They'll probably switch to any sort of job that is not 24/7 and pays comparably, just to have the time to also take care of their kids.

    The other STEM fields don't involve that level of stress, and while I'd expect some rarity of women due to lack of interest, there is by and large much less SHIT to be suffered in those fields than in most generic IT jobs.

    In my experience, the most common job for women in IT is software Quality Assurance, where the women often seem to outnumber the men, while the network administrators and the DBAs are very rarely women. QA is essentially a 9-5 job, while the network administration is usually on call 24/7, and DBA are also on call very frequently, but less so than the network admins. This is just my personal experience, no hard statistics, but I've been in this field since 1996 and the patterns appear to be consistent over time.
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  2. #212
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    It might be worthwhile at this point to define or list exactly what constitutes IT jobs. I would not have automatically excluded software developers from the list, but then this is not my field. What is the parameter space here?
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  3. #213
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    It might be worthwhile at this point to define or list exactly what constitutes IT jobs. I would not have automatically excluded software developers from the list, but then this is not my field. What is the parameter space here?
    I don't automatically exclude software developers, or even QA. My point is that most IT jobs are going to be maintenance and support, which often has a 24/7 requirement. If you are a DBA, and your mission critical database goes down (or has issues, or whatever), you're going to get a call. If you're a network admin of whatever variety, and your piece of the network goes down, you're gonna get a call. And this is all on top of handling the other support tickets and projects.

    Once upon a time, it was just computers and geeks who wrote programs on them. Over time lots of layers of expertise have been added. These extra layers are mostly maintenance level expertise, keeping systems running, handling security, making sure that critical systems are always available. The extra hours are intense. As an interesting side note, one company I'm aware of changed several of their IT positions from hourly to salaried (where justified), because the overtime was remarkably expensive. The move didn't work as intended, however: they lost some very skilled people due to what was effectively a significant pay cut. Now, imagine the amount of overtime they were pulling, and how many people are willing to put up with that level of overtime, and ask whether men and women are equally likely to have the extra time to pull it off for an extended duration.
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  4. #214
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Once upon a time, it was just computers and geeks who wrote programs on them. Over time lots of layers of expertise have been added. These extra layers are mostly maintenance level expertise, keeping systems running, handling security, making sure that critical systems are always available. The extra hours are intense. As an interesting side note, one company I'm aware of changed several of their IT positions from hourly to salaried (where justified), because the overtime was remarkably expensive. The move didn't work as intended, however: they lost some very skilled people due to what was effectively a significant pay cut. Now, imagine the amount of overtime they were pulling, and how many people are willing to put up with that level of overtime, and ask whether men and women are equally likely to have the extra time to pull it off for an extended duration.
    Wouldn't the same "on call" aspect of the job apply also to doctors - probably other careers, too, where the representation of women is not on the decline? I agree that as things are now, men are more likely to have the time to support this. It goes along with Kelric's comments about women having leeway in choosing whether and how much to work.

    To the extent that these factors influence the presence of women in IT, however, it is not something that can be remedied within the industry itself. That will only happen when the outside-of-work constraints on men and women even out, so both are deciding on the merits of this kind of work environment from a similar context.

    Put another way, men may stay in these demanding jobs because they need to support a family and have a wife who presumably takes up the slack at home, but they would probably appreciate not having to put in so many hours and always be on call. The obvious answer is for employers to hire a few more staff members, and share the duties so no one is on call all the time, or always the one to do overtime. Many issues presented as "women's issues' are really just parents' issues, or issues facing anyone in a caregiver role, or most broadly, human issues.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #215
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Wouldn't the same "on call" aspect of the job apply also to doctors - probably other careers, too, where the representation of women is not on the decline?
    Yes, to a degree, but most doctors aren't "on call", that's just emergency rooms. Due to an accident of employment, I happen to be aware that while hospitals will have crazy working hours for some jobs, they keep a cold eye on overtime, and arrange things so that overtime rarely happens. They mostly work 40-hour weeks. (Salaried doctors average in the low 50s, which isn't too bad. Some specialties will have 60+ hour weeks.)

    IT is different. Interestingly, you can switch out doctors and nurses, for the most part (though specialties differ). In IT, it isn't like that at all. Either one is active in one's field or not, and has specific expertise in systems that cannot readily be shared without extensive cross-training. So you can't just grab another network admin or DBA. They're already hired, working on someone else's stuff, and they really don't know yours. So for a given IT person, it's great job security, but being the ONLY person (or one of very few people) who knows how to fix a given employer's systems quickly, you're stuck doing it almost every time the fit hits the shan.

    I agree that as things are now, men are more likely to have the time to support this. It goes along with Kelric's comments about women having leeway in choosing whether and how much to work.

    To the extent that these factors influence the presence of women in IT, however, it is not something that can be remedied within the industry itself. That will only happen when the outside-of-work constraints on men and women even out, so both are deciding on the merits of this kind of work environment from a similar context.

    Put another way, men may stay in these demanding jobs because they need to support a family and have a wife who presumably takes up the slack at home, but they would probably appreciate not having to put in so many hours and always be on call. The obvious answer is for employers to hire a few more staff members, and share the duties so no one is on call all the time, or always the one to do overtime. Many issues presented as "women's issues' are really just parents' issues, or issues facing anyone in a caregiver role, or most broadly, human issues.
    I would agree with that. Interestingly, the same reasons I give above apply to your solution of hiring more staff members. The problem is again the level and kind of expertise. Such staff members are neither cheap nor abundant. Several organizations have only one real go-to guy, who cannot be easily replaced.
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  6. #216
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I would agree with that. Interestingly, the same reasons I give above apply to your solution of hiring more staff members. The problem is again the level and kind of expertise. Such staff members are neither cheap nor abundant. Several organizations have only one real go-to guy, who cannot be easily replaced.
    This practice has more consequences than any impact on women. It sets up that go-to person as a single point failure. Cross-training, then, becomes even more important since it ensures that if a critical person is run over by the proverbial bus, or does get fed up and quit, disruption of capability is minimal.

    Edit: How would the high stress and work demands in IT explain the sudden decrease in percentage of women in the field? Was there some significant change in the work environment that precipitated the decline?
    Last edited by Coriolis; 12-07-2012 at 10:23 PM. Reason: Added a question.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #217
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udog View Post
    True, but single men seem more likely to only work enough to support their minimal needs.
    Do they? This is incompatible with the idea, touted by several in this thread, that men are expected to support families. Presumably most single men don't anticipate remaining single indefinitely.

    It's also incompatible with the data that suggest men are more aggressive when it comes to demanding higher pay.
    Quote Originally Posted by kelric View Post
    My hypothesis was that married men would have a harder time leaving jobs with deleterious characteristics than married women or single people of either gender - especially if the pay tended to be greater than elsewhere -- something that's likely true for a lot of IT jobs.
    So you're suggesting everyone hates working in IT but only women have the luxury of being able to leave?
    No, sorry, that doesn't wash. Why do 74% of women in IT claim to love their jobs, if that's the case?
    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The study you referenced in your reply is different from the one referenced in the link I was commenting on.
    Nope. It's the same one mentioned in the article (which contains the link.)

    One might wonder what your motivation is in starting and developing this thread at all. Is it really to gain greater understanding of why women avoid or eventually leave the IT field? Or do you have some other less obvious agenda? If anyone has demonstrated kneejerk dismissal of others' contributions, combined with a tendency toward subjective devaluation and outright namecalling, it is you.

    This is a shame, since I find the topic interesting, timely, and important. I have observed the same trends as you, from the perspective of a different STEM discipline, and have been asking myself some of these same questions for years. I would prefer to be able to exchange information and insights with a minimum of extraneous drama, so I can understand the precipitous downtrend in IT better, and perhaps even the lag of physics and engineering behind fields like chemistry and math among careers chosen by women.
    You are transparently disingenuous. If you are genuinely interested in the topic, as you claim, what possible reason could you have for dragging my motives for starting the thread into the discussion ?
    Lol. You're not very good at this, are you?
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I suspect there is a huge difference between IT and other STEM fields, namely that IT demands long hours, and in most respects is more along the lines of a "mechanics" job, than an engineering or design job. As a software developer, I occasionally need to work late hours, but mostly I'm working normal work days. In contrast, my IT associates who administer the networks and databases are expected to be available 24/7, and if something goes wrong, they get the blame. It's a fairly high paying job, but it has a corresponding stress level that I wouldn't accept for myself. (As a software developer, I'm doing engineering and design, and not a lot of off-hours maintenance.)
    1. Software development IS IT. Not sure why you don't think it is.
    2. IT supports flexible working better than any other field I've encountered.
    3. There are FAR more stressful careers out there. Anyone who finds IT stressful wouldn't last five minutes as a doctor, nurse, lawyer, accountant, teacher, police officer, business person. Hell, it's hard to think of an occupation less stressful than IT.
    Nobody dies.

    In my experience, the most common job for women in IT is software Quality Assurance, where the women often seem to outnumber the men, while the network administrators and the DBAs are very rarely women. QA is essentially a 9-5 job, while the network administration is usually on call 24/7, and DBA are also on call very frequently, but less so than the network admins. This is just my personal experience, no hard statistics, but I've been in this field since 1996 and the patterns appear to be consistent over time.
    I guess this is just a matter of opinion. In mine, QA/change management is far more stressful than the job of the average sys admin or DBA. Those are pretty cushy jobs. I think there are more women in project managment than QA, at any rate. And project / service management is one of the most stressful areas in IT.

    The crux of your argument appears to be that women can't deal with stress. I call bullshit.
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    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #218
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The crux of your argument appears to be that women can't deal with stress. I call bullshit.
    The crux of my argument is that women with children are likely to have demands on their schedule that require more "normal" jobs. It has nothing to do with handling stress, it's handling the stress of work and the stress of children and having to balance to two against each other, which necessarily means opting for jobs that are more convenient with respect to also handling kids. I dunno if you have kids, but while they can often be a pleasure to have around, they don't really take care of themselves until their late teens, and until then a working mother is really working two jobs, one of which is unpaid.

    Of course, you can just keep on asserting your thesis that discrimination is the primary factor in the statistics, and cite anecdotal evidence in support of it. It's a fine and valid position, and is definitely a factor in many cases, but I don't think you're really accounting for other factors. The "discrimination" explanation fits your worldview, and you appear to be engaging in confirmation bias with every story that points at discrimination as an explanation, never presenting other possible causes or scenarios.

    If the real explanation is discrimination, why should IT be more discriminatory than any other field? What is it that makes nerdy men in IT more abusive of women than nerdy men in math or physics? Should there be extra laws/rules/regulations in IT to prevent discrimination?

    Another way of looking at it: does Occam's razor point at discrimination, or does it point at necessarily different life circumstances? One's answer to this question tends to be dependent upon one's worldview.
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  9. #219
    Feline Member kelric's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by kelric
    My hypothesis was that married men would have a harder time leaving jobs with deleterious characteristics than married women or single people of either gender - especially if the pay tended to be greater than elsewhere -- something that's likely true for a lot of IT jobs.
    So you're suggesting everyone hates working in IT but only women have the luxury of being able to leave?
    No, sorry, that doesn't wash. Why do 74% of women in IT claim to love their jobs, if that's the case?
    No, that's not what I'm suggesting. Not everyone dislikes IT, certainly. Of those who do, not only women, and not all such women, have the luxury of being able to leave and do something else. I was not (and if it was interpreted this way, that was not my intent) speaking in absolutes, but only proposing that variances in the financial and cultural requirements and expectations may tend to drive differences in IT career participation among large populations of men and women, respectively.

    And as for 74% of women in IT who love their jobs -- that statistic is like any other... dependent upon circumstances, further thought, and analysis. The simplest caveat to its usefulness is that it's of women who currently have jobs in IT, not women who've at one point had a job in IT. If I start out with 1000 women in IT, 900 of them dislike it and decide to do something else as a career, and 74 of the remaining 100 like their jobs when surveyed, I'd get your result. Not that it's worthless, but the validity of any such simple statistic is of questionable value (granted, I don't know the source of the statistic, and it may have been part of a larger, more comprehensive study).

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    2. IT supports flexible working better than any other field I've encountered.
    3. There are FAR more stressful careers out there. Anyone who finds IT stressful wouldn't last five minutes as a doctor, nurse, lawyer, accountant, teacher, police officer, business person. Hell, it's hard to think of an occupation less stressful than IT.
    Nobody dies.
    Particularly in reference to these points, I think that you may be assuming that all IT positions align with your own experiences. I assure you... they do not. Even in my own experience, the flexible working hours is absolutely *not* true. I have zero flexibility there, nor does anyone in my IT office / organization. We're expected there during business hours, plus any extra time for off-hours requirements. No flexibility, no comp-time for late-night deployments, etc. We do have vacation, etc... but so do all of the non-IT workers in our organization, who are not subject to the same expectations with regard to evenings/weekends, etc.

    IT can be very stressful. Of course I wouldn't compare it to the acute stress of an emergency room doctor trying to save someone's life, or a police officer confronting a violent person. Like you say, nobody dies, but don't discount the stresses that IT folks get -- especially chronic stress. 24/7/365 on-call is not abnormal in a lot of IT positions. Not "one week a month on call rotation", but every night, all year. I know people who get called 2-3 times a week (or more) in the middle of the night for months, if not years, on end. Especially if you work for an organization with a significant online presence, the sheer scalability of IT-related sales activities means that the "we lose a million dollars every 10 minutes our web presence is down" puts extreme pressure squarely on the shoulders of the IT folks to prevent and/or fix those situations ASAP. And, at least in my own experience (and from what I hear, it is representative), IT folks are very often in the "responsible for things outside of your own control" situation - which is practically the definition of stress, especially over the long term.

    Anyway, I may be drifting a bit off-topic here. But I think that it's pretty clear that declining participation in IT among women is not a simple issue, and likely has a number of contributing factors. But I am positive that it's not simply "men in IT treat women like dirt, and that's why women leave IT" -- there are absolutely situations where that's the case... but I think that it's simplistic to assume that it's the only factor involved. Anyway, said my bit.
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  10. #220
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Well, I've never worked in the IT field myself, but I do have a few theories about why things have gotten worse for women in IT.

    The first is the economic recession. The US has this concept of men being the breadwinners, and in times of economic hardship, there is an unwritten expectation of the women being the one to give up their jobs so men can work and provide for their families. In a lot of people's minds, there's still that belief that women are just working because they either want to, or just don't want to get married... and that men have to work. I think it would be hard to deny that people tightening their belts tend to drift/push back more towards these conservative ideals, and it does seem to line up with the decline we've been seeing of women in IT.

    Now, that explains women not being able to get their foot in the door, but what about leaving after they are hired? Well, there are a number of possibilities here. First of all, there is still the stigma of IT being a "nerdy" field, and even if they get treated WELL at work, it's possible that the awkwardness of having to tell their dates that they work in IT makes it harder on them socially, and also they might have their family breathing down their neck telling them they need to settle down and stop wasting their time with something "silly" like IT and work on having a family before they're too old. Men are encouraged to do it because it allows them to be seen as successful, or at least providing for themselves. That alone probably keeps a lot of women away from IT.

    Now, we come to your argument, the harassment at work thing. I definitely see that as a possibility, and I think it may be linked to the other two factors I just mentioned. In such situations, those men may actually be deliberately trying to make the women uncomfortable because they feel threatened by them. This may be in part due to the economic situation... they're acting this way to drive the women out because they're subconsciously afraid they couldn't compete with women and that their jobs would be in jeopardy if they had to worry about it, and acting in this way both helps them feel confident/superior, and mitigates the underlying fear of having their jobs taken by women. On some level, the feeling that women are just taking an IT job as a casual hobby, and that it's not something they have a serious interest in, may add to the resentment these men feel. In other words, the social stigma may be helping enable these men to justify behaving this way towards women in their minds, because "they aren't serious about IT anyway."

    I don't mean to say that most men in IT would act this way, or that many corporations condone it. But you have to take into account less professional operations and smaller companies in less populated areas, where many people get their start. Now, if you get a job in a major city with a good corporate policy on these things, or a government job... I'm sure it's rarely an issue. But I can easily imagine a girl graduating from an IT class, and trying to get started with her career in some small-time operation that's just starting up and thus willing to take people fresh out of college with no experience... and having experiences like Salome described. The rural areas and smaller towns of the US are a lot more backwards than most people would like to admit. It sometimes doesn't even seem like the same country. Now, I'd like to qualify that statement by saying that sometimes men with these attitudes do slip through the cracks even in better companies (perhaps having risen through the ranks in one of those small-time branches I talked about), and make the whole place look bad. But I do believe that on the whole, larger corporations with proper policies, and the government, tend to be more civilized towards women than small rural businesses and such.

    There is one thing I can say for certain, though. I recently tried to start up a website with a group of people who I probably shouldn't have gotten mixed up with. There were two women in the group, not counting myself. One was an ENFP, the other was an ISTJ. The rest were men. Now, what happened was, I appointed a man (who was apparently INFJ) to be administrator of the website, since he had experience and was being driven off of another website that I had had bad experiences with, and I felt sorry for him.

    Now, I found that these guys were the type that constantly make dick jokes, look at anime porn, and just generally don't have a lot of class. I thought it was just a personality thing, though. But what got to me eventually was that they kept picking on the ENFP girl, making weird sexual jokes about her. She wouldn't say anything, but would just kind of go silent or post somewhere else for while. Eventually she wasn't contributing much to the project. I didn't do anything about it at first, because the guy I had appointed (who was generally regarded as the leader) told me that "she said she likes it, don't worry about it," and I was like, "these people are sick/weird, whatever, as long as they behave themselves and follow my rules when it comes to the website."

    Turned out later on, that she actually did have a problem with it, but was afraid to say anything about it. In fact, she would complain to me in private, but if anyone scolded them in public, she'd defend them in saying it was "just a joke." It was like Stockholm Syndrome or something. The other weird thing is that the ISTJ lady would sometimes join in with the teasing/abuse, and was accepted as one of them.

    Now, this did bother me, but what ultimately created issues was that he got paranoid about sabotage and demoted a few people without really consulting me first, and one of them was an ENTP guy who I was actually counting on to promote my website. Also, the ISTJ lady (who was the girlfriend of the INFJ) started talking and laughing about letters she writing to her ex-boyfriend threatening him, and he had happened to be a good friend of mine, so this really upset me. So at this point, the INFJ and ISTJ had shown a lot of disrespect for myself and my staff. I invited the ENTP to come back, told him that guy had acted out of line, but he was too upset about how he was treated before, even though it wasn't directly my fault. I ended up talking to the only person on my staff that didn't seem to have lost their mind or been driven away yet, the INTP tech admin who was helping me design it, and he said that he didn't trust the ISTJ or other INFJ to start with, that the treatment of the ENFP bothered him, but that he hadn't said anything because he felt he was just a tech admin and that it wasn't his place.

    Anyway, to make a long story short, I ended up firing them, and then everyone else left with the other INFJ, aside from the INTP. It actually wasn't a major loss, because the two of us had been doing most of the work anyway, while he was busy throwing his weight around. The job I hired the other INFJ to do turned out not to be difficult enough for me to need him, as myself and the INTP surpassed his "years of skills" using that particular application within half a month of researching it online.

    After hearing more about the ISTJ lady, the story gets worse. It seems like she has a history of abusing boyfriends... and that INFJ has a history of redirecting anger onto the wrong people. It's now considered fairly likely that she abused him, and he took it out on the ENFP (which is why she never wanted anyone to stand up to him). I had known him for a couple of years, and he wasn't really like this before hooking up with her, which definitely raises red flags. Also, he blamed a lot of his behavior on "not taking his medication" or something, for OCD and paranoia. I wasn't inclined to buy it at the time, it just seemed like an excuse. I was upset about him driving away the ENFP and ENTP, and not prepared to forgive him.

    But the point of that story is, that INFJ was learning Java in school and used things like Tor all the time. He was definitely a nerd headed towards an IT career. He definitely fit the profile of a geek-bully with horrible attitudes towards women, and I got the impression there are whole communities of people like him. I don't know how many of them have abusive girlfriends or mothers... but regardless of that, I do feel that Salome is right to be concerned about men like this in the IT field, because I've seen them.

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