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  1. #171
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    As long as the expectation and the reality is that family responsibilities rest primarily with women, I doubt much will change.
    Why should this fact affect STEM careers so disproportionately? (It's true that things move more quickly in IT than most professions, but career breaks are not career suicide. I know plenty of women who have successfully returned to work after maternity breaks.)
    It doesn't explain the downward trend either, unless we are to suppose that men were much more helpful in the eighties and nineties.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #172
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Why should this fact affect STEM careers so disproportionately? (It's true that things move more quickly in IT than most professions, but career breaks are not career suicide. I know plenty of women who have successfully returned to work after maternity breaks.)
    It doesn't explain the downward trend either, unless we are to suppose that men were much more helpful in the eighties and nineties.
    You have to read up on the life of Carl Friedrich Gauss one day. That guy was a brilliant mathematician but he never lived a life. When you see his life in a movie he appears to you like a bum who sat in his chamber all day and had a woman caring for the rest. He devoted 100% of his real physical life to abstract theorethical study.

    It's my opinion that this sort of life would appear like a nightmare to most woman (even if they had a man caring for them like Gauss had a woman) and as long as that is so, you wont find more woman in IT.
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  3. #173
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    You have to read up on the life of Carl Friedrich Gauss one day. That guy was a brilliant mathematician but he never lived a life. When you see his life in a movie he appears to you like a bum who sat in his chamber all day and had a woman caring for the rest. He devoted 100% of his real physical life to abstract theorethical study.

    It's my opinion that this sort of life would appear like a nightmare to most woman (even if they had a man caring for them like Gauss had a woman) and as long as that is so, you wont find more woman in IT.
    You cannot be serious. If you think most people in IT are like Gauss you are very much deluded.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #174
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You cannot be serious. If you think most people in IT are like Gauss you are very much deluded.
    "What people are like" doesnt intrest me.

    I was talking about what to expect when you go for IT and math, with the ambition to become really good at it.
    On average 99% of the people on the world are IT pros, cause they have a facebook account.
    On average tho prolly 1% on this forum does know what a 7805 is (and would hit me for not using a buck/boost converter).
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  5. #175
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    "What people are like" doesnt intrest me.
    So why hold up Gauss as an example of what women fail to want to be like (in your opinion)?

    I was talking about what to expect when you go for IT and math, with the ambition to become really good at it.
    On average 99% of the people on the world are IT pros, cause they have a facebook account.
    On average tho prolly 1% on this forum does know what a 7805 is (and would hit me for not using a buck/boost converter).
    Now you're just being silly. Not that I've come to expect more from you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #176
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Oh Gott, you remind me of my ESTJ female boss, I stand no chance against her logic.

    Well Gauss is a person too of course, so to speak people matter. But I had two different itentions here: the Gauss example aimed to convey an attitude or a feeling towards a thing. The generality of people who are in IT nowadays are no meanigful mass to reflect what it takes to give up, to be good at the topic.

    Nowadays everyone has a smartphone. Only 10 years ago I had ICQ on my Mobile and people laughed at me an called me a nerd. Nowadays every moron can make a webpage. Back in the days when you had to use CGI scripting that wasnt so easy. Then you were happy when you were able to program a working sendmail script in 7 days what would you today take a second.

    If you have the ambition to go to IT and use the tools we have nowadays which make the whole programming so simple a cat could do it, then its quite easy. If you tho still would have the ambition to study that matter a bit deeper as well as the underlieing electrotechnics and math behind that, you'll have to sacrifice some of yourself on the way.

    Surely there are people who are that intelligent that they can care for their home, wife, kids, their job and still program an induction coil routine for their lawn mowing robot. But for the average person or for me it is difficult to switch between the real world and the abstract world in the blink of an eye.

    The majority of woman I've met in my life, had one common goal: we want to have fun. I have met maybe 3 or 4 woman to whom it was fun to write CGI routines. On the other hand, in my history as a fulltime nerd, I have always been in the vicinity of men. When I was a gamer, going to lan parties, there were 99% men. At University in engineering there are 99% men. In my job, 99% men. Woman have had all the time all the same chances to go the same way like I did, but the majority of them refused. So there must be something they dont like about the idea of an IT nerd.

    I would be so glad if there were a lot more woman in all the life fields I have ever entered as a nerd. I am the first who screams here, come you all. But there arent, tho my country is running billions of programs to get woman into engineering. And the reason for this cant be only no more that woman arent liked in that fields or whatever.

    And my theory is that, woman dont find it to be fun to lead a life like Gauss. Did you understand me now cause way more detailed I cant explain it ?
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  7. #177
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    The majority of woman I've met in my life, had one common goal: we want to have fun. I have met maybe 3 or 4 woman to whom it was fun to write CGI routines. On the other hand, in my history as a fulltime nerd, I have always been in the vicinity of men. When I was a gamer, going to lan parties, there were 99% men. At University in engineering there are 99% men. In my job, 99% men. Woman have had all the time all the same chances to go the same way like I did, but the majority of them refused. So there must be something they dont like about the idea of an IT nerd.

    I would be so glad if there were a lot more woman in all the life fields I have ever entered as a nerd. I am the first who screams here, come you all. But there arent, tho my country is running billions of programs to get woman into engineering. And the reason for this cant be only no more that woman arent liked in that fields or whatever.

    And my theory is that, woman dont find it to be fun to lead a life like Gauss. Did you understand me now cause way more detailed I cant explain it ?
    How many more women would join your LAN party or other group if it were not 99% men? Yes, it has to start with someone, but often once a few set the trend, others follow. Many factors contribute to the low numbers of women in these fields. Some were identified in the article Salome posted, some mentioned by members here. There is no overnight or single solution, but every woman who enters these fields or comes to the LAN party helps.

    Many women don't know how much fun these activities are because they have never given them a proper try, or perhaps not been exposed to them except through stereotypes. There also can be negative pressure from family, or especially friends. Some people are better at resisting this than others. Your example of Gauss is a bit anomalous even for STEM fields. I am in experimental physics, and while I have been told other people consider it very isolating, it is far from what you describe. I work with a group of intelligent, friendly, helpful and yes - quirky colleagues. We have alot of fun on the job, get to play with some outrageous equipment, and conduct experiments to understand our area of research and show the potential for its application. We all have private lives and outside interests. That being said, we tend to identify much more strongly with our profession than do people in many other careers. We never stop thinking about the kinds of things we work on. It is part of who we are. I know this is not for everyone, but I can't see anything that would be particularly off-putting to women.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Why should this fact affect STEM careers so disproportionately? (It's true that things move more quickly in IT than most professions, but career breaks are not career suicide. I know plenty of women who have successfully returned to work after maternity breaks.)
    It doesn't explain the downward trend either, unless we are to suppose that men were much more helpful in the eighties and nineties.
    I am not sure it does affect STEM careers disproportionately. I am aware of it also affecting women in law, finance, even academia. This concern was pointed out in the report you referenced as one factor affecting women's participation in STEM. I think it affects women's participation in all jobs, in different ways. A shift worker does not have the flexibility to leave early or work at home to accommodate family needs. The very autonomy and flexibility that women value in many professional occupations can come back to bite them if it is perceived that they are putting family before job, even if their actual job performance does not suffer.

    Entropie does have a point in that professionally employed men have traditionally been able to rely on wives to tend to things at home, freeing them for overtime, travel, or even fielding calls at home after hours. To the extent that this is expected in STEM jobs (e.g. many academic faculty positions), women are at a disadvantage if they do not have a similarly supportive partner.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #178
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I don't even know where to start with that, entropie. I will just say that I find it pretty ridiculous to say that women just want to have fun, and that's why they don't get into IT. Especially since you go on to describe "fun" things you've done with your IT buddies and gosh, there weren't any women involved, so surely they just want to do woman things.

    Personally, I didn't get into IT because I don't have the specific aptitudes it takes to excel in the field. I don't know if that's innate to my brain or if I could have had more mathematical/technical aptitude in a different cultural context. I guess there's no way to know. But as long as I can remember I've had trouble understanding math and spatial stuff, and no trouble at all understanding ELA-oriented stuff. And I like that my field (educational publishing) is pretty balanced with neither gender really dominating it, and also a remarkably "friendly" field where people don't seem to cut each other down. For a while I considered pursuing a PhD in English Lit, and I ended up deciding against it when I befriended some lit professors and heard about the backstabbing that goes on in scholarly circles. My friend who is now a Mary Shelley scholar started out as a Wm. Blake scholar but was drummed out of the society of Blake scholars for writing a book about religion which had "been done."

  9. #179
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I don't even know where to start with that, entropie. I will just say that I find it pretty ridiculous to say that women just want to have fun, and that's why they don't get into IT. Especially since you go on to describe "fun" things you've done with your IT buddies and gosh, there weren't any women involved, so surely they just want to do woman things.
    I wanted to polarize a bit. I always find those discussions about "same rights" for woman rather boring, when woman and men talk together about them. When you talk with woman or men alone about the topic, you'll find way more polarizing opinions. It's no allround wisdom that woman want to have fun, but its my experience that woman tended to consinder different things as fun than I did. Then again, I needed to get older to find out that there are way more men out there who aint nerds as well. So I basically grew in a very confined environment.

    What I can say so as a fact is that the amount of people in my environment, which would call themselves "societies standard" or the "normal people", disregardless of gender, have a lot of stereotypes about IT people. I have been working on changing that for years now but I am running out of energy... so I am in this discussion with a lot of frustration already.

    Personally, I didn't get into IT because I don't have the specific aptitudes it takes to excel in the field. I don't know if that's innate to my brain or if I could have had more mathematical/technical aptitude in a different cultural context. I guess there's no way to know. But as long as I can remember I've had trouble understanding math and spatial stuff, and no trouble at all understanding ELA-oriented stuff. And I like that my field (educational publishing) is pretty balanced with neither gender really dominating it, and also a remarkably "friendly" field where people don't seem to cut each other down. For a while I considered pursuing a PhD in English Lit, and I ended up deciding against it when I befriended some lit professors and heard about the backstabbing that goes on in scholarly circles. My friend who is now a Mary Shelley scholar started out as a Wm. Blake scholar but was drummed out of the society of Blake scholars for writing a book about religion which had "been done."
    I already think that "having a technical aptitude" is a stereotype. When I try to help my gf with a technical problem, she has an attention span of 3 seconds and then throws it all away and says eff it. While on the other hand, when she is stichting for example, she can do the same thing over and over again until its perfect. So my point is, noone can have an aptitude for anything, the only thing you really need if you lack talent is motivation.

    I for example went 13 years to school before University and majored in german and english literature studies. Then I started University and choosed the same majors. I am still a big fan of literature and its a hobby of mine but since I got my first electronic learning kit with age 12, I had the nagging intrest to study that field. Still I barely managed to finish school cause I had a E in math and dont even ask me about physics. I was really really bad in nearly every natural science at school and when I told teachers my dream, they laughed their asses off. My job advice was to become a politician or a priest because I talk so much.

    So after two semester of english and german, I signed in for engineering at the second hardest school in the country and said I'll do it. It took me a while and two times I was this close to gettin kicked out, I definitly aged faster during the whole time but I've made the degree. And nowadays my equations still suck, I cut shorts and dont concern with precision or correctnes, sometimes the things I build just explode because I forgot something crucial, but I am having fun !

    So what I want to say here, what may be could be a good advice for anyone, if you just go by what others tell you is your aptitude you might be able to do more. And I doubt that someone who is hardly 17 or 18 years old and has to choose an University field, really knows what his lifes aptitude will be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How many more women would join your LAN party or other group if it were not 99% men? Yes, it has to start with someone, but often once a few set the trend, others follow. Many factors contribute to the low numbers of women in these fields. Some were identified in the article Salome posted, some mentioned by members here. There is no overnight or single solution, but every woman who enters these fields or comes to the LAN party helps.

    Many women don't know how much fun these activities are because they have never given them a proper try, or perhaps not been exposed to them except through stereotypes. There also can be negative pressure from family, or especially friends. Some people are better at resisting this than others.
    This is true but I've never said otherwise. Following this logic it means that men go to LAN parties and woman will go if you show it to them. That still means there is something different about the perception of the two regarding those things. I completly agree with you that it is due to stereotypes and that those affect men and woman differently, but they are there and thats what matters. Often tho in those debates people who will talk about stereotypes are the first ones to get punished by either side, with the premise that in our modern society those stereotypes dont exist no more. See me, I just have to say that woman rather want to have "fun" than go to IT and I am the idiot. But its exactly the point. Here's an example:

    when I met my gf 7 yrs ago, I had a problem. She was my second relationship in that time cause the first one was with my computer. So I tried the unthinkable and introduced her to world of warcraft. And the unthinkable happened, she choosed an orc warlock and played it with me to level 68 (we would have gotten further, if we had had the time and I wasnt to change class so often because the old one got boring ). One of the hardest classes in WoW and she really had a lot of fun with it, tho she never really tried to perfect her gameplay. She just played for fun. One day she came to me and asked me what it would mean that people always would ask her for "ss" when she is playing a dungeon alone. Well ss is a spell her char can cast on the groups priest, which is able to revive him- or herself in case the whole group dies. And then can revive the group. Its an essential failsafe the lock can pull and one major reason why groups are happy to have the warlock with them. My gf didnt know that, played the game for 60 levels but never had the ambition to find anything out about the abilities she has. I like that in her and find it sweet, cause it makes her very cool and funny. Her being a sp temperament, you maybe have an idea what I mean.

    I dont want to say with that, this is because she is a girl. No way thats just her character. But and that is what I want to say: when she told her coworkers that she is playing WoW, she immediantly had the respect of all the male workers, but lost those of the female ones. My gf has never been intrested in the societal role a girl needs to play where I come from, but and thats what is worse, her intrests isolated her more and more. And nobody wants to be isolated, no matter what tough rebel he is.

    So at the end of the day it are those stereotypes only and tho we 3,4 or 5 people here might be able to grasp that, the majority of the World is not. There is always a difference between theory and practice. I have always been an exception to the nerds, since I had being a very girlish being, always had more female friends than male ones. And I took them all to LAN sessions and showed them whats going on there and how much fun you can have. Only one fell for my world and she became my gf.

    Your example of Gauss is a bit anomalous even for STEM fields. I am in experimental physics, and while I have been told other people consider it very isolating, it is far from what you describe. I work with a group of intelligent, friendly, helpful and yes - quirky colleagues. We have alot of fun on the job, get to play with some outrageous equipment, and conduct experiments to understand our area of research and show the potential for its application. We all have private lives and outside interests. That being said, we tend to identify much more strongly with our profession than do people in many other careers. We never stop thinking about the kinds of things we work on. It is part of who we are. I know this is not for everyone, but I can't see anything that would be particularly off-putting to women.
    Its not so anomalous from my PoV. You are lucky that you have your buddies and besides your country is way more intrested in innovation than mine. There is a reason that I am lurking for over 13k posts on an american forum and not on a german one. I am sure that there are people in my country who have the same enthusiasm about natural sciences like I have but they are rare and hard to find. I am always trieing to watch american TV cause its way more made for me, on german television you rather find endless documentaries about WWII. The region I live in is a pure workers region, where the highest ideals are soccer and beer and my grades never have been that good that I could manage to get me my own high intelligent project group. I rather have to see that I survive in allday life and dont stick out too much or someone will ground me again. Wherein lies my frustration potential, like I have said earlier..
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  10. #180
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Oh Gott, you remind me of my ESTJ female boss, I stand no chance against her logic.
    Ah ok. So your frustration lies in the fact that you are managed by a woman who can outwit you. Noted.

    Well Gauss is a person too of course, so to speak people matter. But I had two different itentions here: the Gauss example aimed to convey an attitude or a feeling towards a thing. The generality of people who are in IT nowadays are no meanigful mass to reflect what it takes to give up, to be good at the topic.
    Congrats. You just undid your own argument and spared me the bother.
    If it is not necessary to be a mathematical genius in order to have a career in IT, then citing Gauss is meaningless. You might as well say that no one should write if they are not Goethe or no one should compose if they are not Mozart.
    In fact, I doubt there are many geniuses wasting their time in commercial IT, I've certainly not encountered any. I have encountered some remarkable men though. One, a PhD math nerd who allowed me to correct his equations and got me my first real IT job. Another brilliant ENTP physics nerd whose problem was that he was much too bright to do the job he was doing - it bored him, and he made a pig's ear of it - but he was a fascinating conversationalist and taught me about neuroscience. He once confessed that he hated computers (as do I). He left that job to found a start-up with a product that makes programming accessible to non-programmers. Then there was the lovely and brilliant INTP guy from Oslo, who excelled at his job, but found it unfulfilling and so he gave it up to become a pt University lecturer, make / sell furniture and look after his kids.

    Nowadays everyone has a smartphone. Only 10 years ago I had ICQ on my Mobile and people laughed at me an called me a nerd. Nowadays every moron can make a webpage. Back in the days when you had to use CGI scripting that wasnt so easy. Then you were happy when you were able to program a working sendmail script in 7 days what would you today take a second.

    If you have the ambition to go to IT and use the tools we have nowadays which make the whole programming so simple a cat could do it, then its quite easy.
    And who do you think writes those tools for moronic cats? IT is a complicated beast, only a tiny part of which the layman gets to see. Advances in technology have made things easier for users, but the architectures we are working with now are infinitely more complex than they were 10 yrs ago. There are truly immense technical challenges and opportunities.
    Back at the dawn of personal computing, any nerdy 14 y/o could programme, even build a PC in his garage and understand it inside and out. These days, even with a product as ubiquitous as Windows, there is no one alive, genius or otherwise who understands every part of that software platform. The game has moved on.
    And the challenges are not only, and not even most importantly, technical. For example, there is a whole industry devoted to the process of software engineering. How to do it well, quickly, and cost-effectively. (Which it is spectacularly poor at accomplishing) And there are entire disciplines (such as project management) which require little to no technical skill at all (and which often pay more than those which do.)

    If you tho still would have the ambition to study that matter a bit deeper as well as the underlieing electrotechnics and math behind that, you'll have to sacrifice some of yourself on the way.
    Untrue. I did my post-grad while holding down a full time job. It's really not that difficult. Granted, I've always found study easy. However, a key reason for pursuing a career in IT is that the cost-benefit ratio is probably higher than in any other low-risk industry. As such, it's perfect for those who work-to-live, instead of the other way around. It's also ideal for women with child-care responsibilities as most places have flexible working now and many allow you to work from home.

    I'm not claiming to be the next Turing or von Neumann, but to reiterate: you really don't have to be to make a pretty decent living.

    Surely there are people who are that intelligent that they can care for their home, wife, kids, their job and still program an induction coil routine for their lawn mowing robot. But for the average person or for me it is difficult to switch between the real world and the abstract world in the blink of an eye.
    Yes well, women are supposed to be better at multi-tasking (mostly because they have to be).

    The majority of woman I've met in my life, had one common goal: we want to have fun.
    It seems you have led a very sheltered life. Even if this were true of most women (and it most certainly is not), IT is no less fun than say, business administration, secretarial work, accountancy, law, nursing and any number of other professions where women have better representation. This is a non-argument.

    When I was a gamer, going to lan parties, there were 99% men. At University in engineering there are 99% men. In my job, 99% men. Woman have had all the time all the same chances to go the same way like I did, but the majority of them refused. So there must be something they dont like about the idea of an IT nerd.
    Have they really had "all the time" "all the same chances"?
    The correct answer is no. Even when I went to (an all-girls) school I didn't have access to the same technology-focused curriculum that the boys in the adjoining school had. The girls were taught home economics, the boys were taught metal-working and CAD. I was bought useless, uninspiring toys - dolls and such. I wanted meccano. I wanted chemistry sets. I wanted electronics kits. I wanted a PC.
    I succeeded in spite of people trying to hold me back at every turn and despite having NO ONE to encourage my enthusiasms. And it is only a partial success (I am 100% certain I would have faced fewer challenges and been allowed to achieve more if I were not female) and I am extraordinarily single-minded and bright.
    You simply have no idea what you're talking about.

    Btw, I have no interest whatsoever in playing games or attending LAN parties (though plenty of women these days do). I guess that's because I care too much about having "fun".
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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