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  1. #141
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Men do, too - especially when they are trying to impress a woman. It does make an impression, but not necessarily the desired one.
    Oh yes ! I knew I could turn this discussion into one about me
    [URL]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEBvftJUwDw&t=0s[/URL]

  2. #142
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by entropie View Post
    Oh yes ! I knew I could turn this discussion into one about me
    Thank you for volunteering as our guinea pig. Have a carrot.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #143
    Senior Member sculpting's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Of course it does. Without knowing more about a particular study, I cannot evaluate the degree to which this condition is satisfied. I am simply making a comparison with the trend in computer science degrees shown below.


    The significant drop in CS degrees between 1985 and 1990 coincides with the proliferation, or spinning off, of IT related degrees outside the official computer science or computer engineering umbrella, and many of the students in these newer programs have been women. (BTW, "management" doesn't imply authority or seniority. Many jobs in financial management, personnel management, information management, etc. are low level clerical jobs occupied primarily by women.) Attrition in the undergrad years may be contributing to the decline in degrees ultimately received. It is interesting that engineering did not see a similar decline, though it is stereotypically geeky as well. Like my own field of physics, it does not seem able to stay over the 20% mark for female participation.
    I peeked in the thread but never saw a clear description of why the CS degree plummeted so abruptly-did you guys ever find more details about this data? That is very strange.

    I have worked in biotech, saw a lot of hooking up, and had many requests to hook up, but I didnt count these as sexual harassment, just sexual interest. I now work at an IT company. We have a dev/QA team of upwards of 100 with two women in QA, one women as a Director (INTJ), and a women VP as the group lead. There was a female asian dev, but she left. The guys are quite dorky and very, very young but they seem extremely respectful of the women. They were actually very protective and respectful of the asian dev member and trying to make her feel accepted. (perhaps this is bad they would feel the need to do so). The rest of the company is split 50/50 and we have many strong women leaders.

    I have often wondered about the diff between the biological sciences and the physical sciences-both are slowly growing, but the biological sciences are close to 50% women now days. I am oblivious to social conditioning (and social feedback ) but I hear a lot from folks who say that women are deterred from the sciences via social pressures.

    However these statements always seem to be speaking on behalf of these unnamed women-what I would like to hear is these women speak for themselves....ha, my biochem prof once told me I should consider nursing-it pissed me off so much that I doubled my next test score. He said he had never seen such a dramatic improvement. But maybe for other women, this sort of suggestion demoralizes them and turns them away...???

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    I agree with you that it's a factor, and it does make a difference. But it would have to be a very willful child, in my opinion, or who is oblivious to the signals society is sending her, and can somehow plod ahead without influence. If she sees no women in physics, for instance, receives blatant and subliminal messages in school that it's more of "guy thing", is made to feel stupid by her piers... I mean, how do you think that will result, in most scenarios, even with parental support?
    I credit my willfulness and social obliviousness for much of my success, hahaha.

    edit-as for IT....when young I wanted to understand the secret of life...thus I aimed to biochemistry...then I realized chemistry underlay biology....then physics underlay chemistry.... so my path wove through these accordingly.

    Engineering sounded dull (since I didnt understand what it was) but I suspect to many an SJ male, it is a very "respectful" degree. Computers were and still are totally fucking boring, although I really am loving building out the application and seeing all the parts coming together.

  4. #144
    Senior Member fripping's Avatar
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    i don't think it's a huge mystery or societal conspiracy.

    1. boring is the new dirty.
    2. you don't have to hate people to work in i.t. but it sure helps and most women are too good natured to base a lifetime career on snarling misanthropy.

    these two factors are enough to imbalance the gender scales by themselves but they also cause the kiss of death;

    3. women aren't too crazy about sausage parties unless they're already one of the guys.

    haha oh wait is this whole thread based off of somebody getting groped? i'm just gonna um


  5. #145
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That article also mentioned a pretty severe decline in academic career interest for male PhD students as well.
    The point is, the male interest remained pretty stable (from 61% to 59%). "But for the women, the number had plummeted from 72% in the first year to 37% as they finish their studies."
    Something else must be accounting for the change of heart. Unless we're just going with the "women don't know what they want" line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #146
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orobas View Post
    I peeked in the thread but never saw a clear description of why the CS degree plummeted so abruptly-did you guys ever find more details about this data?
    Not this one specifically, but it ties in with the findings of the CCF amongst others. Feminists have long recognised that progress towards equality stalled in the mid-eighties and has actually begun to reverse. The graph of CS degrees, maps this trend eerily well. The so-called "backlash" which is insidiously undermining and eroding women's status and the hard-won achievements of the last century. And we can't blame men for that. There are as many women who want to be in chains as men who want them there.

    However these statements always seem to be speaking on behalf of these unnamed women-what I would like to hear is these women speak for themselves....ha, my biochem prof once told me I should consider nursing-it pissed me off so much that I doubled my next test score. He said he had never seen such a dramatic improvement. But maybe for other women, this sort of suggestion demoralizes them and turns them away...???
    The kind of women who are easily demoralised also find it hard to speak for themselves, it seems...

    I credit my willfulness and social obliviousness for much of my success, hahaha.
    Definitely a recurring theme.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #147
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Of course it does. Without knowing more about a particular study, I cannot evaluate the degree to which this condition is satisfied. I am simply making a comparison with the trend in computer science degrees shown below.


    The significant drop in CS degrees between 1985 and 1990 coincides with the proliferation, or spinning off, of IT related degrees outside the official computer science or computer engineering umbrella, and many of the students in these newer programs have been women. (BTW, "management" doesn't imply authority or seniority. Many jobs in financial management, personnel management, information management, etc. are low level clerical jobs occupied primarily by women.) Attrition in the undergrad years may be contributing to the decline in degrees ultimately received. It is interesting that engineering did not see a similar decline, though it is stereotypically geeky as well. Like my own field of physics, it does not seem able to stay over the 20% mark for female participation.
    It's difficult to come up with definite conclusions about such a distinct pattern. That other IT-style degrees proliferated at about the same time is one possibility. Another possibility is the proliferation of computer-oriented jobs in general: it is possible that these numbers reflect growing numbers of men switch from other majors (e.g., "business") into what became one of the fastest growth sectors of the economy. Thus it would be possible that even if the number of women increased at the same % rate each year, the increase of men in the field could easily exceed that rate. Perhaps CS stopped being some sort of abstract degree and became a "mechanics" degree for a generation of boys raised on video games.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  8. #148
    lab rat extraordinaire CrystalViolet's Avatar
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    I once had a lectuter crack endless blonde jokes through a study session. I was one of two females in a class of twenty. I never went to a study group again, the other female dropped out. It was English for technology and science. It was in the 90's too, at the height of gurrl power. I also didn't persue chemistry inspite of being the only female in my year to pass organic and inorganic chem, and specifically asked to keep perusing it. I loved chemistry too. I can't really tell you why. At the time I thought it was being too ambitious. Now I think back, and wonder why I would ever think that.
    I know the OP specifically states the IT industry, but the world of science and IT, are not unrelated in terms of analytical skills and abilities.
    At the time I expected to get married and have children (or rather it was expected of me), so I guess I made choices accordingly.
    Make of this, as you will, I'm not saying my experience is typical. Although I suspect I'm not the only one with a similar tale to tell.
    Currently submerged under an avalanche of books and paper work. I may come back up for air from time to time.
    Real life awaits and she is a demanding mistress.

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  9. #149
    FigerPuppet
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    What were you trying to accomplish with the article in the OP? Yes, it is completely unacceptable that this has happened, and the men should be punished accordingly, but you are attempting to sensationalize it as if it is something that is common within the entire IT industry. DEFCON, as a gathering of mostly ill-mannered basement dwellers for whom every encounter with a female is of the third kind, is far from representative of the industry.
    Last edited by FigerPuppet; 10-21-2012 at 08:08 AM.

  10. #150
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    What were you trying to accomplish with the article in the OP? Yes, it is completely unacceptable that this has happened, and the men should be punished accordingly, but you are attempting to sensationalize it as if it is something that is common within the entire IT industry. DEFCON, as a gathering of mostly ill-mannered basement dwellers for whom every encounter with a female is of the third kind, is far from a representative of the industry.
    Are you? Because if you are, you're helping to prove the point.
    And if you're not part of the industry, you're not really qualified to comment. (Even if your gender did not already disqualify you).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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