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  1. #121
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Being (or having been) a computer nerd, the attitudes I have picked up from male computer nerds is that's it's cute that I am talking about computers. I get a clear condescending vibe. Having the feeling that you've already been written off and can never be taken seriously might deter some women. Certainly deterred me, never being included in the conversation. I distinctly felt the need to prove myself, to bulldoze my way into conversation... which is then in turn perceived negatively by others. For someone like me, I feel like "why bother". I have so many other interests, why should I force myself to deal with these people?
    ( . )( . )

  2. #122
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    Found a interesting paper: Retention of Women and Minorities in the IT Workplace

    Excerpt:
    Several theorists assert that a masculinization of the IT workplace has occurred during the past 30 years due to the strong link between economic power and success of technologists. The prominence of the computer’s place in the social and economic horizons has solidified the link between man and machine. Males have made solid their claim of computers as a highly valued resource. Although these authors have made no claim as to this perspective’s application to minority relationships with computers, the implications of this perspective are that those who hold power, typically White (Anglo) males, have claimed the IT industry for themselves and erected boundaries to prevent others from having access to such a valuable resource.
    Ah, thank you.

    Still, we shouldn't get too carried away. After all, the report authors are only women and might well be the hysterical victims of exceptional circumstance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #123
    WhoCares
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Excerpt:
    Several theorists assert that a masculinization of the IT workplace has occurred during the past 30 years due to the strong link between economic power and success of technologists. The prominence of the computer’s place in the social and economic horizons has solidified the link between man and machine. Males have made solid their claim of computers as a highly valued resource. Although these authors have made no claim as to this perspective’s application to minority relationships with computers, the implications of this perspective are that those who hold power, typically White (Anglo) males, have claimed the IT industry for themselves and erected boundaries to prevent others from having access to such a valuable resource.
    Wow, paranoia at its best. My experience of the industry is that it isn't run by anglo males at all. By far the largest group of males in IT were Asian males (Indian subcontinent and SE Asian). No-one I worked with had the attitude it was a resource to be sequestered in a power move for supremacy. It was just another job or career.

  4. #124
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoCares View Post
    My experience of the industry is that it isn't run by anglo males at all. By far the largest group of males in IT were Asian males (Indian subcontinent and SE Asian). No-one I worked with had the attitude it was a resource to be sequestered in a power move for supremacy. It was just another job or career.
    Most work outsourced to India is low grade. That's not where the power lies (yet).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #125
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Attrition a problem at Google
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/23/te...pagewanted=all

    Still, senior women at the company are losing ground. Since Larry Page became chief executive and reorganized Google last year, women have been pushed out of his inner circle and passed over for promotions. They include Marissa Mayer, who left last month to run Yahoo after being sidelined at Google.

    “There was a point at Google when the cadre of women leadership was pretty strong,” said a former Google executive who would speak only anonymously to preserve business relationships. “That has changed.”
    More than half of women in technology at big companies leave midcareer, but half of those who leave stay in technical jobs, moving to the public sector or start-ups, indicating that there is something about big companies that pushes them out, said Catherine Ashcraft, senior research scientist at the National Center for Women and Information Technology.
    And some ideas for improving interview/recruitment practice
    Google’s spreadsheets, for example, showed that some women who applied for jobs did not make it past the phone interview. The reason was that the women did not flaunt their achievements, so interviewers judged them unaccomplished.

    Google now asks interviewers to report candidates’ answers in more detail. Google also found that women who turned down job offers had interviewed only with men. Now, a woman interviewing at Google will meet other women during the hiring process.

    A result: More women are being hired.

    Once hired, technical women were not being promoted at the same rate as men. At Google, employees nominate themselves for promotions, but the data revealed that women were less likely to do so. So senior women at Google now host workshops to encourage women to nominate themselves, and they are promoted proportionally to men, Mr. Bock said.

    Another time Google was losing women was after they had babies. The attrition rate for postpartum women was twice that for other employees. In response, Google lengthened maternity leave to five months from three and changed it from partial pay to full pay. Attrition decreased by 50 percent.
    Lack of confidence, again, seems key.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #126
    Junior Member Liberty's Avatar
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    I can't speak for anyone else but i'm female and I'm a computer nerd big time...as for the computer subculture...I can SQLi, XSS, RFI/LFI,CSRF I know what a c99/r57 shell is and how to upload one; I can write out a decent DDOS script, exploit with metasploit, session hijack...So, I consider myself pretty interested in the IT department. I haven't been to DEFCON but I do plan to go. I'm not really attractive and I tend to dress really casual anyway so i don't think sexual harassment will be a problem. So, I can hereby confirm that I, am a woman, who does not shun IT.

  7. #127
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    In my experience, women almost always had better grades in math than guys, the divide only stopped its growth (or changed direction) at the end of high school and-or during our university years.

    That's been the case in recent years, as with virtually every subject, but hasn't been historically. I don't know why men do so terrible in school now. Some say it's that academic culture is less conducive to male learning styles than it used to be, but I don't even know what a "male learning style" is supposed to be. There are both men and women, who very much fit in with their biological gender, who are primarily visual, aural, and kinisthetic learners.
    You lose.

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  8. #128
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I wasn't saying "IT guys are boring", what I was saying "the profession in itself is boring".
    Incredibly boring. At my engineering school many of the people who went into IT were people who couldn't grasp scientific concepts and/or failed calculus.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #129
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    I don't know why men do so terrible in school now. Some say it's that academic culture is less conducive to male learning styles than it used to be, but I don't even know what a "male learning style" is supposed to be. There are both men and women, who very much fit in with their biological gender, who are primarily visual, aural, and kinisthetic learners.
    I think it might be the same reason some ethnic minorities tend to underachieve at school - it's just not considered cool to be booksmart in some sub-cultures.

    Also porn.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #130
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I think it might be the same reason some ethnic minorities tend to underachieve at school - it's just not considered cool to be booksmart in some sub-cultures.

    Also porn.
    Indeed.
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