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  1. #111
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Harmony View Post
    Not to be derogatory about.... Why bother with that statement, when in reality, you are intending to be derogatory? I guess that's why people leave their IT jobs in the "better industry" to come here for higher pay.... I have been in the call center work... And the helpdesk here at the college is very different than the other call center's I've been in. I actually rarely deal with phone calls...however, I'm not surprised to see that statement since I've seen a lot of stereotyping already.

    I think I need to clarify... Yes, my job is at the IT Helpdesk of a college. HOWEVER, the coworkers I was referring to... DO NOT have the same job as me. They are the ones that work on PCs, projectors, printers, servers, and networks all day long. I get to be the buffer between them and the rest of the college (be it staff, faculty, or students). So while you may think that I am one step below a call center... They are not...unless you consider physically working on PCs, programming, setting up networks switches, and everything else call center work.

    (Not meaning to sound hateful, I'm only in this job temporarily. I actually have zero interest in the IT field, I just happened to be fairly good with computers and the pay was good...and the free tuition gets me closer to the field I really want in)
    I'm sorry, but you're only further proving my point with each post.
    And since you don't think much of the field yourself, I'm surprised at your being so defensive.

    To answer your question, no, I don't think help desk or grunt work (cabling, PC Support etc) is IT proper. It's IT support. You don't need a comp sci degree to put a toner cartridge in a printer.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #112
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Sure it is, I agree with that.

    From a reverse perspective though, once I "broke through" in my contracts, I enjoyed an elevated status ... once acknowledged a peer, it gave me an edge over my male colleagues. I could stand out and exert a stronger voice than most of them. What should I have done about that? Given them their power back? What do you think?
    I think you shouldn't have abused any perceived power advantage you thought you had. And I'm sure you didn't.
    My point is there are failings, inadequacies, discrepancies in every role ... how do we accommodate for that over time? I like to be tactical about it and take that perceived weakness and turn it to a strength.


    I still like the original question, veering off into wilds here isn't necessarily helping us gather more rice.
    What makes you so sure these are "the wilds"?
    Have any better theories? (I have one or two in reserve.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #113
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I'm sorry, but you're only further proving my point with each post.
    And since you don't think much of the field yourself, I'm surprised at your being so defensive.

    To answer your question, no, I don't think help desk or grunt work (cabling, PC Support etc) is IT proper. It's IT support. You don't need a comp sci degree to put a toner cartridge in a printer.
    Just because I don't have a passion for IT work doesn't mean I don't think much of it. Our IT department busts their ass to make sure that all the technology on the campus runs smoothly. It's far more than just putting a toner cartridge in a printer and just setting up cables. I'm not defensive for me. I'm defensive for my coworkers who actually enjoy the field.


  4. #114
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I think you shouldn't have abused any percieved power advantage you thought you had. And I'm sure you didn't.
    Abused it, never.

    What makes you so sure these are "the wilds"?
    Have any better theories? (I have one or two in reserve.)
    Our collective experiences can only answer a question of attrition, unless women in IT are actively telling their daughters "DON'T go into IT" based on that experience. What we are sharing still fails to address why women choose not to enter the field in the first place.

    As for theories, I will ponder on it ...
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #115
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    That's not how I read the article. She doesn't mention whether the cause for that perceived or real difference is iological or social (my guess would be a mixture with a tendency towards social) and she doesn't say that "girl's are good" but that "girls develop self-control earlier". Once again no mentioning of a cause, my guess would be that this is a social difference.
    I agree (that girls are conditioned to be good), I just think she fails to make a decent case for any of her assumptions.
    I can pull theories out of my ass all day long (and often do), why should I believe hers any more than any other? Where is the evidence that people respond that way (to praise)? Doesn't tie in with my experiences.
    Nor yours - you were demoralised by the "you are lazy, try harder" message.

    I would agree if that was what she said. However - and this is not just nitpicking but an essential difference - the message to boys is not "must try harder (i.e. not good enough)" but "could succeed if he worked harder/made an effort". That is an empowering message. You are good/smart/etc might sound nice at first but it does take away authorship. Competence as something inherent over which you have no control.
    Do you honestly believe all boys are told this and all girls told something else? Doesn't happen. To test all you have to do is construct your 2 groups as "kids who do well at an early age" and "kids who don't" - no need to create artificial lines around gender.

    Agreed. But, see above, that is not at all what the article says.
    Very much implied.

    I received a very mixed message. When I received a similar report card at a tender age my mum refused to explain to me what "superior cognitive abilities" meant. Whenever I became too cocky - and I am talking about when I was under the age of 10 - I was told never to think too highly of myself or to dare to consider myself intellectually superior to others, especially, but not exclusively, my siblings. Her intentions might have been good, but it crushed my spirits for years to come as I overcompensated and developed serious self esteem issues.
    Oh, me too.

    I just learned early on that people can be fuckwits and sore losers. I never doubted myself. Never believed there was anything I couldn't / shouldn't do. I mean, I did think it was all a massive fluke and eventually other kids would catch up/outshine me, but it didn't happen. I had to accept the possibility that I really was "gifted". (I still hate that expression though).

    I never learned to work hard towards a goal though as things either came naturally to me or I just accepted not being good at them a as a given fact (exactly what the article seems to drive at, at least the way I read it). That is why I also got the "good do better if she wasn't so lazy" message from a few teachers. But I never believed that and just took it as an insult (not only does that class suck - or I suck at that class - but on top of it that teachers calls me lazy).
    The only classes I failed were P.E (wouldn't bother to show up) and drama (didn't see the point). I would never do anything I couldn't see the point of. But getting an F didn't phase me. One day I decided to show the drama teacher what I was capable of. She was stunned. Everyone was. I got a distinction.
    I guess I just have balls of brass. I don't know where they've come from, I really think it's innate.

    The difference between boys and girls - if we believe the author - is not how rebellious they are or how much praise they get nrt how good their grades are but whether they are taught to have an internal or external locus of control. People with an internal locus of control tend to be more confident and more successful careerwise.
    Not sure you can give someone an internal locus of control, I think they take it for themselves. Besides which, there are no significant gender differences on this measure, according to your own source, so doesn't look like this is the reason either.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #116
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    The difference between boys and girls - if we believe the author - is not how rebellious they are or how much praise they get nrt how good their grades are but whether they are taught to have an internal or external locus of control. People with an internal locus of control tend to be more confident and more successful careerwise.
    This hits the nail on the head. I won't make claims as to how innate one's locus of control is. It is reasonable, though, that giving someone messages that amount to "you can do it" is more encouraging and empowering than simply acknowledging personal traits, even positive ones. Someone with significant native ability who never uses it will accomplish far less than someone with less ability but a drive to make the most of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Our collective experiences can only answer a question of attrition, unless women in IT are actively telling their daughters "DON'T go into IT" based on that experience. What we are sharing still fails to address why women choose not to enter the field in the first place.
    Your collective experiences illustrate the kinds of behaviors that contribute to the reality or perception that IT is inhospitable to women. You don't need IT women to warn off their daughters for the word will get around. Attrition will result in a net smaller percentage of women in IT jobs at any point in time.
    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    What about careers of a manual labor type? Do you think women do just as well as men in these fields and just avoid them due to conditioning? Say the Alaska oilfields.
    Well, if you include janitorial and agricultural work, women have done manual labor for centuries. Manual labor in other fields, as with most work outside the home, has traditionally been the province of men. Where physical strength was required, those women capable of it were usually deterred by the same old prejudices and stereotypes. The introduction of technology that lessens the physical load makes these jobs more accessible to men and women of modest strength. It is encouraging that more women are entering the skilled trades, like plumbing and electrical work. In fact, some communities even have outreach programs designed to attract women, especially those retraining after losing jobs in other industries.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #117
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Sorry, are you the IT profession personified, or...?
    What does an IT guy look like, and how do women know to avoid this type?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #118
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    What does an IT guy look like, and how do women know to avoid this type?
    I wasn't saying "IT guys are boring", what I was saying "the profession in itself is boring".
    ENTj 7-3-8 sx/sp

  9. #119
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I wasn't saying "IT guys are boring", what I was saying "the profession in itself is boring".
    Then what I'm seeing in the OP?

    Why women shun IT:
    Is it because they have no interest?
    Is it because they have no talent?
    Or is it because they don't want to get felt up at conferences?
    Is it because WOMEN have no interest, no talent, and don't want to get felt up?

    Geesh, no wonder I put the OP poster on ignore. The question doesn't even make sense now that I've read it "correctly." And the part about not wanting to get felt up is just ludicrous stereotyping.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #120
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Your collective experiences illustrate the kinds of behaviors that contribute to the reality or perception that IT is inhospitable to women. You don't need IT women to warn off their daughters for the word will get around. Attrition will result in a net smaller percentage of women in IT jobs at any point in time.
    I realize I missed the "for example" in my sentence. Thinking about what you have said. Pondering how the word gets around though to the high school crowds ...

    -----

    Found a interesting paper: Retention of Women and Minorities in the IT Workplace

    Excerpt:
    Several theorists assert that a masculinization of the IT workplace has occurred during the past 30 years due to the strong link between economic power and success of technologists. The prominence of the computer’s place in the social and economic horizons has solidified the link between man and machine. Males have made solid their claim of computers as a highly valued resource. Although these authors have made no claim as to this perspective’s application to minority relationships with computers, the implications of this perspective are that those who hold power, typically White (Anglo) males, have claimed the IT industry for themselves and erected boundaries to prevent others from having access to such a valuable resource.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

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