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  1. #101
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    OOOHHHH! Gotcha. Maybe I have.



    So, there should also be more men in nursing and teaching as well? That is gender driven too?
    Ah, good. Well, yes, there should be more men in nursing and teaching, but more importantly, there should be more respect to everybody in those fields. The reason there are less men is because people still think of it as a 'woman's job' in some sort of derogatory sense, and I can't help but think that effects payscale/work environment/perceived importance.

  2. #102
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Stereotyping. If I was boring, my ISFP wife wouldn't have married me. True story.
    Sorry, are you the IT profession personified, or...?
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  3. #103
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    IT helpdesk, yes?
    Yep, I'm the one that bosses all our computer techs around.

    We've had an....interesting department from the start. Our boss is the stereotypical IT nerd. However... the rest of our department is not. Two of our guys were always in the gym on their breaks... I believe both were trying to get into bodybuilding. And then the rest of us were women... And the women pretty well ran the department... Maybe it was that we were more diplomatic with people than the men seemed to be?


  4. #104
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Ah, good. Well, yes, there should be more men in nursing and teaching, but more importantly, there should be more respect to everybody in those fields. The reason there are less men is because people still think of it as a 'woman's job' in some sort of derogatory sense, and I can't help but think that effects payscale/work environment/perceived importance.


    What about careers of a manual labor type? Do you think women do just as well as men in these fields and just avoid them due to conditioning? Say the Alaska oilfields.
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  5. #105
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I think there was a frontier mentality back then, where everything in the new world was up for grabs. Now, the tech world is more codified, and people sense less possibility, more defined roles. Anyway, it's all a bunch of ENFP gobbledey gook, but I'm leaving that there.
    It is more codified, and old enough now that the "old boys" have written the code.

    Example, my old boss told me, within the same meeting, both that "gender discrimination is 100% not tolerated here" and that "analysts are a certain breed - fluffier, with better people skills, so it's more suited to women than say, architecture."
    Haha. I can laugh because he was a bullying bastard (who once SHOUTED at me that his dept was not hostile) and who eventually got shafted on his own petard.
    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    Well, yes, there should be more men in nursing and teaching, but more importantly, there should be more respect to everybody in those fields. The reason there are less men is because people still think of it as a 'woman's job' in some sort of derogatory sense, and I can't help but think that effects payscale/work environment/perceived importance.
    Converse also true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic Harmony View Post
    Yep, I'm the one that bosses all our computer techs around.

    We've had an....interesting department from the start. Our boss is the stereotypical IT nerd. However... the rest of our department is not. Two of our guys were always in the gym on their breaks... I believe both were trying to get into bodybuilding. And then the rest of us were women... And the women pretty well ran the department... Maybe it was that we were more diplomatic with people than the men seemed to be?
    Not to be derogatory about your job, but IT help desk work is only a short step up from call centre work. It's usually low skilled and low paid (and therefore easy to get). That there are more women there is unsurprising. Women are often given supervisory roles too, because the perception is that their people skills are better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #106
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    What about careers of a manual labor type? Do you think women do just as well as men in these fields and just avoid them due to conditioning? Say the Alaska oilfields.
    I sense a trap. In physical labor men as a whole tend to have a edge over women, it's a different subject all together. I wouldn't say practically that I would expect to see an even amount of male and female workers, but I would hope that a woman would not hesitate to take up the job if she chose too. Honestly, that would be an even trickier problem than getting more women into the IT field.

    In computers, the qualifications are mental (eh, brain-based), so that's why it's a better indicator that there's something wrong when there aren't more even numbers in the workplace.

  7. #107
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I sense a trap. In physical labor men as a whole tend to have a edge over women, it's a different subject all together. I wouldn't say practically that I would expect to see an even amount of male and female workers, but I would hope that a woman would not hesitate to take up the job if she chose too. Honestly, that would be an even trickier problem than getting more women into the IT field.

    In computers, the qualifications are mental (eh, brain-based), so that's why it's a better indicator that there's something wrong when there aren't more even numbers in the workplace.

    No trap. Do I incite that kind of reaction?


    I'm being serious. So much is technologically driven now...like the oil refineries, etc., that have typically been male-dominated. Yet I could see women having a really hard time not only breaking in to these professions, but then like getting raped behind the coke machine.
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  8. #108
    Senior Member Chaotic Harmony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Not to be derogatory about your job, but IT help desk work is only a short step up from call centre work. It's usually low skilled and low paid (and therefore easy to get). That there are more women there is unsurprising. Women are often given supervisory roles too, because the perception is that their people skills are better.
    Not to be derogatory about.... Why bother with that statement, when in reality, you are intending to be derogatory? I guess that's why people leave their IT jobs in the "better industry" to come here for higher pay.... I have been in the call center work... And the helpdesk here at the college is very different than the other call center's I've been in. I actually rarely deal with phone calls...however, I'm not surprised to see that statement since I've seen a lot of stereotyping already.

    I think I need to clarify... Yes, my job is at the IT Helpdesk of a college. HOWEVER, the coworkers I was referring to... DO NOT have the same job as me. They are the ones that work on PCs, projectors, printers, servers, and networks all day long. I get to be the buffer between them and the rest of the college (be it staff, faculty, or students). So while you may think that I am one step below a call center... They are not...unless you consider physically working on PCs, programming, setting up networks switches, and everything else call center work.

    (Not meaning to sound hateful, I'm only in this job temporarily. I actually have zero interest in the IT field, I just happened to be fairly good with computers and the pay was good...and the free tuition gets me closer to the field I really want in)


  9. #109
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I have a problem with this logic. Effectively, she is saying some differences are innate and some are conditioned, and is drawing the distinction in a pretty arbitrary way.

    "Boys are a handful"
    "Girls are good"
    That's not how I read the article. She doesn't mention whether the cause for that perceived or real difference is iological or social (my guess would be a mixture with a tendency towards social) and she doesn't say that "girl's are good" but that "girls develop self-control earlier". Once again no mentioning of a cause, my guess would be that this is a social difference.

    This is taken for granted, whereas, she seems to think that being given negative messages about your accomplishments : "must try harder" has a more positive effect on self-esteem / confidence than being told "you're so clever".
    I'm not convinced.
    I would agree if that was what she said. However - and this is not just nitpicking but an essential difference - the message to boys is not "must try harder (i.e. not good enough)" but "could succeed if he worked harder/made an effort". That is an empowering message. You are good/smart/etc might sound nice at first but it does take away authorship. Competence as something inherent over which you have no control.

    If this were the case then taking 2 groups of girls, one where they are told "must try harder" and one were they are told "you're so smart", the former would eventually outperform the latter. This doesn't happen.
    Agreed. But, see above, that is not at all what the article says.

    I was a "good girl" and a good student and got a lot of props for it, one teacher wrote on my report card "x has the gift of a superior intellect". This pissed me off because at no point did I accept that I had anything superior to work with than anyone else. I just put it down to my hard work and conscientiousness and the apathy of other less successful students for whom playground politics were more important priorities.

    My extrovert sister was constantly told "you have ability but you are lazy, must try harder" and guess what? She never really did. And she continues to doubt / seriously underestimate her intellectual abilities to this day.
    I received a very mixed message. When I received a similar report card at a tender age my mum refused to explain to me what "superior cognitive abilities" meant. Whenever I became too cocky - and I am talking about when I was under the age of 10 - I was told never to think too highly of myself or to dare to consider myself intellectually superior to others, especially, but not exclusively, my siblings. Her intentions might have been good, but it crushed my spirits for years to come as I overcompensated and developed serious self esteem issues.

    I never learned to work hard towards a goal though as things either came naturally to me or I just accepted not being good at them a as a given fact (exactly what the article seems to drive at, at least the way I read it). That is why I also got the "good do better if she wasn't so lazy" message from a few teachers. But I never believed that and just took it as an insult (not only does that class suck - or I suck at that class - but on top of it that teachers calls me lazy).

    If it's true that boys are innately more rebellious than girls, then why is this alone not a satisfactory explanation for eventual differences in self-confidence when it comes to tackling "hard problems"?
    I don't think "being a hand-full" automatically implies being more rebellious. But let's assume that it does. Having higher self-confidence would be an advantage, sure, but the positive experiences would be collected outside the classroom, not inside. I don't think high confidence in social or physical skills directly translates to confidence ín academic skills (which the article seems to focus on).

    The difference between boys and girls - if we believe the author - is not how rebellious they are or how much praise they get nrt how good their grades are but whether they are taught to have an internal or external locus of control. People with an internal locus of control tend to be more confident and more successful careerwise.
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  10. #110
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's discrimination - to have to endure expectations and standards that your male colleagues do not have to meet. I know it's difficult to see, because it's so all-pervasive in the industry that you start to just tune it out.
    Sure it is, I agree with that.

    From a reverse perspective though, once I "broke through" in my contracts, I enjoyed an elevated status ... once acknowledged a peer, it gave me an edge over my male colleagues. I could stand out and exert a stronger voice than most of them. What should I have done about that? Given them their power back? What do you think?

    My point is there are failings, inadequacies, discrepancies in every role ... how do we accommodate for that over time? I like to be tactical about it and take that perceived weakness and turn it to a strength.


    I still like the original question, veering off into wilds here isn't necessarily helping us gather more rice.
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    When people see some things as good,
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