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  1. #1
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    Default 15 year old kills bully in "self defense"

    http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2012/...nd-defense-ca/



    The judge stated, in support of her ruling,

    Saavadra had more than enough reason to believe he was in danger of death or great bodily harm.

    Complete bullshit. Apparently a punch in the back of the head has a high chance of causing death or great bodily harm. While I don't doubt that death can occur from being punched in the back of the head, I'd say it's less likely than the chance of dying while driving around in your daily commute.

    Apparently though, it's okay to pull out a gun and shoot someone dead if they punch you. It doesn't matter how hard the punch is all that matters is that you can state you're fearful of your life or fearful of great bodily harm. Yep. Hell you can even get a butchers knife out and start chopping up the assailant.


    I put money on this kid snapping again and murdering another individual in his future.



    p.s. Watch what you say on the internet to florida citizens. Next you know your words may be determined to be "deadly" or cause of "great bodily harm" and if you happen to be near the individual they'd have the right to kill you as well.

  2. #2
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Shut up the world would be better if everyone always had a deadly weapon everywhere because overreaction and stupidity are not things that exists
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  3. #3

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    Wait a minute someone kills a bully and the gut reaction is to take the bully's quarter? WTF kind of power/aggressor identified culture do you live in?

  4. #4
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    You're bullying me Lark, I sense the anger in your post. I have the right to fly over and kill you



    In all seriousness though. You make two failed assumptions.

    1.) My conclusion is based off a "gut reaction"

    2.) My conclusion is also based off my culture

    Pick one or forever hold your peace. Otherwise sit down and stay down.

  5. #5

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    I'd also note, seriously, that this is THE definition of reasonable force, it is what governs the actions of the authorities or anyone else and I think you're going to have a seriously hard time convincing anyone otherwise.

    This is why when a cop pops some caps in the ass of a kid with a water pistol in bad light or an old guy waving a crutch that they have not committed cold blooded murder.

    I would suggest that in the proper climate of fear that being assailed from behind, struck on the back of the head, you are going to believe that your life is in jeoprady, or at least you are going to suffer serious harm, whether you are going to run that risk or not is a different matter.

    Bottom line no one has any excuse to be initiating force on anyone else, lesson to be learned is not to be an asshole bully and punch people in the back of the head. End of. Parents teach your kids not to be dicks if you want them to live long.

  6. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swivelinglight View Post
    You're bullying me Lark, I sense the anger in your post. I have the right to fly over and kill you



    In all seriousness though. You make two failed assumptions.

    1.) My conclusion is based off a "gut reaction"

    2.) My conclusion is also based off my culture

    Pick one or forever hold your peace. Otherwise sit down and stay down.
    I didnt make any failed assumptions and your style of discussion is lousy and unworthy.

    See how that works? Doesnt go any place, if you're finished emoting and evading we could discuss it, although I doubt it, you're a very good representative of the two supposedly "failed assumptions".

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    I would suggest that in the proper climate of fear that being assailed from behind, struck on the back of the head, you are going to believe that your life is in jeoprady, or at least you are going to suffer serious harm, whether you are going to run that risk or not is a different matter.

    This is the only possible defense for the course of action taken. IF and that's a big IF, conditions are met to believe that within the environment that the individual is in deadly danger THEN the stabbings would be reasonable force.

    You haven't convinced anyone here that those conditions have been met. All you're stating is conjecture to support your "gut reaction".
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I would suggest
    *
    Oh I'm sorry.....apparently suggestions are enough of a defense. I should've known better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    you're a very good representative of the two supposedly "failed assumptions".
    Considering you don't know which culture I identify or "represent" it'd be hard to say that I'm a good representative of them. Considering you cannot identify the validity of the second assumption there's probable cause you're not sufficient enough to verify the first.

  8. #8

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    OK, you want to discuss? Well, I'm game, if you start emoting or engaging in one up manship I'm going to quit the thread because that only goes one way, I dont post threads with the expectations of cheer leading or a round of applause and I dont think you should either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swivelinglight View Post
    This is the only possible defense for the course of action taken. IF and that's a big IF, conditions are met to believe that within the environment that the individual is in deadly danger THEN the stabbings would be reasonable force.
    OK can you clarify this for me, do you believe there is no possible defense for defending yourself from harm?

    Is it indefensible that the individual in question did repeatedly and over a protracted period of time seek to avoid a confrontation, left the bus early to avoid a confrontation, saught to escape following the initiation of force towards him?

    Why do you suppose that the individual was not in deadly danger? Were is your evidence for that? Also, incidentially, when was the last time you were physically assaulted? Or subject to a protracted campaign of intimidation and menacing as this person was? I'm just trying to establish your experience and grounds for your point of view, whether or not they are entirely abstract and based upon perfect scenarios or reasonableness as is the law of the US.

    You haven't convinced anyone here that those conditions have been met. All you're stating is conjecture to support your "gut reaction".
    I havent convinced anyone here? It would appear that it is just you and I posting in this thread, given that you are the OP and have stated an opinion to the contrary and I have only posted two posts that would not surprise me. Given that your posts have been pretty emotionally charged and affectively driven it wouldnt surprise me that you remain unswayed by argument either. How did you see this thread going when you posted it? What was your aim?

    Explain to me why you use the word conjecture for my position? Support that statement? I havent made any gut reaction, I find your position absurd and believe that the decision of the courts was valid.

    Considering you don't know which culture I identify or "represent" it'd be hard to say that I'm a good representative of them. Considering you cannot identify the validity of the second assumption there's probable cause you're not sufficient enough to verify the first.
    I'm really not convinced that you fully understand the terminology you are seeking to deploy in order to appear as though your points have greater validity than they do.

    Assuming what you believe is the pose or posture of reason is no substitute for a reasonable position itself, despite whatever "homework" you've done on debate skills, you fail.

  9. #9
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    You can't tell a bully ''leave me alone'', that would never work.
    That said, self defense would be a valid argument, imo, as the killer probably had the firm conviction that he was just defending himself. I mean, he was 14 years old. We can't expect a 14 yo boy to have the mental resilience of an adult.

  10. #10

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    "Concerning nonviolence: It is criminal to teach a man not to defend himself, when he is the constant victim of brutal attacks. It is legal and lawful to own a shotgun or a rifle. We believe in obeying the law."

    "It doesn't mean that I advocate violence, but at the same time, I am not against using violence in self-defense. I don't call it violence when it's self-defense, I call it intelligence."

    "I don't mean go out and get violent; but at the same time you should never be nonviolent unless you run into some nonviolence. I'm nonviolent with those who are nonviolent with me. But when you drop that violence on me, then you've made me go insane, and I'm not responsible for what I do."

    - Malcolm X

    All I'm saying is that self-defence is a human right.

    It is tragic when it involves a fatality, and, yes, I would have to say less tragic when the person who has lost their life was the aggressor but none the less tragic in some way because it involves the loss of life.

    If the authorities were on hand and could intervene in a manner which was less risky, and it may not have been, then I would endorse that. I actually believe that by their actions so would the defendent in that case. In fact I'm sure of it.

    What I believe would have been more tragic would have been if there were not only a death but that the state had further punished the defendent, what for?

    He did all he reasonably could to avoid this guy, over a long period of time, he seems to have been terrified of him, all that and he continued attending school? It doesnt make him appear as though he is of questionable character to me, this other guy who pursued him with his gang, its them I'm worried about, the repeatedly escalated the situation, finally to violence, I'm not unconvinced it could've gone much worse for this individual.

    In the UK, and even the ROI, there have been a couple of cases in which the state has punished, with lengthy incarcerations, individuals with no prior convictions or even attention from the authorities who have killed home invaders, some of them with impressive rap sheets for serious violence. That seems like an injustice to me. Those same individuals will never own a weapon again, unless they sharpen a stick or have some knives in the kitchen. How safe are they from reprisals from the criminal fraternity they've confronted?

    I just think that taking the quarter of the criminally aggressive is wrong. Are there people who will seek to exploit as a legal technicality the human right to self defence? Sure. Human rights are abused. We dont live in a perfect world. Already there is more law than there is justice and wealth or privilege matter. It does not change the fact that its criminal to suppose that being subject to intimidation, harrassment, threats and finally violence is just one of those things people have to live with.

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