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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    the aggressors knew he had a knife and proceeded anyway.
    There's no evidence that the assailant knew the defendant had a knife equipped on him during the time.

    Saavedra showed a pocket knife to two teens on the bus that afternoon.
    It's reasonable to conclude that word had not spread to the bully. It's possible it had however, it is not proven to be true.

    As for the thought about whether the bully was apart of a group doing damage. According to the eye witness videos all the other students were stepped behind the incident and were watching. It was clear also, from the videos, that the feud was between only those two individuals.


    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    ^THIS!

    @Swivelinglight
    not the same thing.
    - a scared 14 year old being bullied and physically assaulted by a 16 year old without the option of fleeing is not the same as spitting in someone's eye and getting killed for it.

    It's not the same thing? As far as I know, spitting in someones eye is a physical form of assault. You're obviously saying that the punch is in another league of potential damage dealing. To that I say, you don't know how hard the bully punched the kid. It could be possible that he's a weak puncher and a spit in the eye would be more painful. All of that is irrelevant. All that is relevant is that they're the same form of assault.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I wasn't trying to convince you.

    As your post has made clear that would be patently impossible.
    That's a shame. I would have enjoyed a genuine exchange.

  3. #53
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @Swivelinglight
    no, it definitely is not the same thing. the punch in the back of the head is the tip of the ice burg. the real issue is the ensuing physical intimidation involved in bullying, and this is what made the kid fear for his life. bullying is a mind game (the physical aspect is maybe 10% of it), and it was obviously enough to scare this kid out of his mind and make him think that he had to make the choice between him or his aggressor. going off your original analogy, if someone were to spit in someone else's face and also physically intimidate them, push them around, threaten them and make them feel like they were in danger of dying, that would a much more realistic comparison. also, spitting in someone's face and punching them in the face mean different things.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    That's a shame. I would have enjoyed a genuine exchange.
    OK.

    Also I apologize if my post came across wrong. I did not mean to infer that our inability to come to a mutual understanding was in anyway a failing on your (or for that matter my part).

    What I meant was that your post was indicative of a moral framework, that by it's very nature precludes an ability for us to see to eye on this situation. I have a completely different moral framework which will interpret the exact same situation in a completely different way.

    My thoughts on the situation conform to my moral framework, and to me they are correct or true. The same can be said of you. These truths we find may not agree with each other, but that makes neither of them any less true to us.

    We see things as we are, not as they are.

    The world needs those with your views and your moral framework just as much as those with mine.

    So when I say it's impossible to convince you, what I mean is that we have to completely different moral frameworks that keep us from understanding the situation in the same way, and as such we will not be able to come to a complete agreement on this.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Anybody has the potential to pass a cycle of abuse on to others.
    Not everyone beats their kids.

    Is abuse something to be happy about? No.
    Depends.

    The context of the violence makes all the difference. If I stop another man from killing my family, and in the process kill him I going to be ecstatic that I put an end to him.

    The killing would probably affect me later, but I would make what peace I could with that and move on.

    But killing is the abuse of life. Happiness for the death of others is sadism, pure and simple. Furthermore, one can end a life without being happy about it.
    [YOUTUBE="fvx6_KG-tiI"]Just sayin[/YOUTUBE]

  6. #56
    pathwise dependent FDG's Avatar
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    He should have just cut his hands or toes or something like that, killing isn't that effective from this POV.
    On one hand, you get in deep legal trouble; on the other hand, you don't maximize the amount of suffering of whoever you want to punish.
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swivelinglight View Post
    There's no evidence that the assailants knew the defendant had a knife equipped on him during the time.



    It's reasonable to conclude that word had not spread to the bully. It's possible it had however, it is not proven to be true.

    As for the thought about whether the bully was apart of a group doing damage. According to the eye witness videos all the other students were stepped behind the incident and were watching. It was clear also, from the videos, that the feud was between only those two individuals.
    The feud was only between those two individuals. Further conflict was still possible.

    If the bully was unaware of the threat of a knife, and if everyone on the bus knew that there would be a fight, then we may as well conclude that the individuals who knew the kid had a knife decided to do nothing to prevent a gore-fest. The situation of violence extended to more kids than those who fought.

    The killer retreated, so we are at a stalemate in determining which party was more justified in the entire series of actions. The kid stabbed Nuno 12 times. Surely, this is use of lethal force, but it's also overkill. It may not be true in this situation, but stabbing someone 12 times when it isn't even necessary sounds like irrational decision making on the brink, not like calculated assault. If he was on the brink, then it's fair to say that he left the situation out of self-preservation. I don't understand how you would bet on the defendant killing a second time if he repeatedly bailed out of confrontations when he knew that even if he was met with force, he would have the upper-hand. The story is shitty on every front.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not everyone beats their kids.
    No... but those who don't still hold the potential to do so.


    The context of the violence makes all the difference. If I stop another man from killing my family, and in the process kill him I going to be ecstatic that I put an end to him.
    I would be ecstatic that my family was protected.

    The killing would probably affect me later, but I would make what peace I could with that and move on.
    Have you ever killed a man?

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    Yeah, our conversation brought that to my mind as well.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    OK.

    Also I apologize if my post came across wrong. I did not mean to infer that our inability to come to a mutual understanding was in anyway a failing on your (or for that matter my part).

    What I meant was that your post was indicative of a moral framework, that by it's very nature precludes an ability for us to see to eye on this situation. I have a completely different moral framework which will interpret the exact same situation in a completely different way.

    My thoughts on the situation conform to my moral framework, and to me they are correct or true. The same can be said of you. These truths we find may not agree with each other, but that makes neither of them any less true to us.

    We see things as we are, not as they are.

    The world needs those with your views and your moral framework just as much as those with mine.

    So when I say it's impossible to convince you, what I mean is that we have to completely different moral frameworks that keep us from understanding the situation in the same way, and as such we will not be able to come to a complete agreement on this.
    I agree that we must agree to disagree.

  10. #60
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    The feud was only between those two individuals. Further conflict was still possible.

    If the bully was unaware of the threat of a knife, and if everyone on the bus knew that there would be a fight, then we may as well conclude that the individuals who knew the kid had a knife decided to do nothing to prevent a gore-fest. The situation of violence extended to more kids than those who fought.

    The killer retreated, so we are at a stalemate in determining which party was more justified in the entire series of actions. The kid stabbed Nuno 12 times. Surely, this is use of lethal force, but it's also overkill. It may not be true in this situation, but stabbing someone 12 times when it isn't even necessary sounds like irrational decision making on the brink, not like calculated assault. If he was on the brink, then it's fair to say that he left the situation out of self-preservation. I don't understand how you would bet on the defendant killing a second time if he repeatedly bailed out of confrontations when he knew that even if he was met with force, he would have the upper-hand. The story is shitty on every front.
    How do you know its overkill? When it comes to inflicting a stab wound on someone I figure one is as bad as twenty, I think this comes down to the whole idea of whether or not something is minimum or maximum use of force, or if something is "someone's idea of a good time", ie psychopathic behaviour.

    I'm inclined to believe that even if there was an element of euphoric violence, the excess of the oppressed person whose attempted finally to make a bid for freedom, that on the whole the amount of times he stabbed this guy was a consequences of traumatic terror, most violence is a "forward panic".

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