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  1. #21
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    As much as I don't think that violence is the response to violence, at the same time I don't understand how the one who is being attacked has to be the one to check their force.
    depends on the motive behind the violence. if you are talking about violence motivated by some sort of hardcore, misplaced conviction, then no, violence is not going to solve anything, it will only make them stronger. however, if you are talking about someone who is being a bully or a sadist, then, frankly, I think violent opposition works wonderfully.

    Fighting is serious business. Initiating is kind of putting your fate into someone else's hands as far as I'm concerned. If you want to fight without risk of escalated reprisal then go to a gym or martial arts club.
    I agree, when you initiate a fight with someone and get hurt, you are facing the consequences of your decision and it is entirely your responsibility.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm not saying either you or Malcolm X are libertarian, but your views on force as justified force in the name of self defense are extremely libertarian. defending your rights, freedoms and physical safety are really at the heart of Libertarianism.
    Nope, they arent. They are not partisan views.

    See this is part of what I hate about particularly political conservatism and libertarian capitalism, they are intent on monopolising and exercising an exclusive purchase upon what are essentially common sensical cultural ideas. I hate any ideology which attempts to do that but those two principally are the culprits. Its a very bad thing.

    Bad because it turns off people to ideas which should be common sense because they are too often willing to accept that those are "libertarian" or "conservative" ideas and become blinkered about it, sometimes they adopt the opposing viewpoint simply "just because" or because they think they know the "enemy line" and ought to have something different, instead of contesting that isnt partisan rehotric but cultural common terrain.

    Thsoe things you mention are not at the heart of libertarianism AT ALL, libertarianism would like that to be the case, or at least for it to be a widespread belief because, well, its obvious really, it will translate into their a boost in their political fortunes but its not the case. Considering that libertarianism supports the present distribution of wealth as natural, lawful and legitimate and considers anything changing it, apart from perhaps changes which will further entrench it, as unnatural, unlawful and illegitimate it cant really believe in the right of individuals to self defence against the predations of others. Unless the predations of Capone the "business man" are considered very different from the predations of Capone the hoodlum. For me they are not and you need to lose your partisan eyewash.

  3. #23
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Nope, they arent. They are not partisan views.
    See this is part of what I hate about particularly political conservatism and libertarian capitalism, they are intent on monopolising and exercising an exclusive purchase upon what are essentially common sensical cultural ideas. I hate any ideology which attempts to do that but those two principally are the culprits. Its a very bad thing.
    Bad because it turns off people to ideas which should be common sense because they are too often willing to accept that those are "libertarian" or "conservative" ideas and become blinkered about it, sometimes they adopt the opposing viewpoint simply "just because" or because they think they know the "enemy line" and ought to have something different, instead of contesting that isnt partisan rehotric but cultural common terrain.
    Thsoe things you mention are not at the heart of libertarianism AT ALL, libertarianism would like that to be the case, or at least for it to be a widespread belief because, well, its obvious really, it will translate into their a boost in their political fortunes but its not the case. Considering that libertarianism supports the present distribution of wealth as natural, lawful and legitimate and considers anything changing it, apart from perhaps changes which will further entrench it, as unnatural, unlawful and illegitimate it cant really believe in the right of individuals to self defence against the predations of others. Unless the predations of Capone the "business man" are considered very different from the predations of Capone the hoodlum. For me they are not and you need to lose your partisan eyewash.
    your understanding of what libertarians support is off the mark (the definitely do NOT support our current distribution of wealth because it is the result of extortion, bureaucracy and a government-corporate orgy, but I don't want to derail so I'll cut this short)

    that said, you have a point in the first part of your post
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  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    your understanding of what libertarians support is off the mark (the definitely do NOT support our current distribution of wealth because it is the result of extortion, bureaucracy and a government-corporate orgy, but I don't want to derail so I'll cut this short)

    that said, you have a point in the first part of your post
    Yeah, you're too blinkered to accept the full import of the post, the resistance is great because you're a fairly orthodox libertarian.

    In reality there's no way that libertarina policies could turn out any other way, its like marxist surprise that a dictatorship did not result in the whithering away of the state.

  5. #25
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    @Elfboy -- from the article, i agree with your assessment of the case decision. Also the judge doesn't make the law, she just renders a decision based on it. The legislature created this law; if people don't like the outcomes, they need to get the law changed.

    Mesnwhile, has someone else actually taken this thread into another tangent of their personal broad views of political parties again? This is supposed to be about the case, not yet one more soapbox.
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  6. #26
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    @Elfboy -- from the article, i agree with your assessment of the case decision. Also the judge doesn't make the law, she just renders a decision based on it. The legislature created this law; if people don't like the outcomes, they need to get the law changed.
    agreed (and to be honest, I hope they don't change that law. people tend to behave themselves better when they know that they can be punished for mistreating others)
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  7. #27
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    Accompanied by several students, Dylan Nuno, a junior, followed Saavedra, a freshman, off the bus. He then punched him in the back of the head, according to court documents and testimony.
    Saavedra attempted to get away once, witnesses said. He then stabbed Dylan Nuno 12 times in the chest and abdomen. Two of the blows caused fatal wounds, including one that nicked his heart.
    During that hearing, students recounted for the judge previous altercations between the two teens, including one instance on the bus when something was lobbed from the back, where Dylan Nuno sat, to the front, where Saavedra was.
    The judge also highlighted that Saavedra would skip school or find other ways home to avoid the bus.
    What's the problem? This should be a lesson to anyone who attacks someone who is clearly trying to avoid the fight. I mean he punched the kid in the back of his fucking head, he didn't even have the decency to give the kid the chance to duck. This is 100% Nuno's fault and he had to deal with the consequences.
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  8. #28
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    The 14 yr old acted in self-defense, from the way the article reads, that's how I interpret it. I believe in standing your ground. I'm not glad the bully is dead. I am surprised that the 14 yr old wasn't locked up till he was 21 the way the courts like to hammer down on self defense victims who kill or even seriously injury the aggressor. I was thinking about how this case story could be used throughout U.S. classrooms to teach students about the possible tragic outcome of what bullying could lead up to.

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    I'm going to take the stance none of you seem to want here and say, I'm glad the bully is dead. People that physically bully those weaker than them are the scum of the earth, and we're better off having him removed from the gene pool.

    Do I think a knife is a proper response to an unarmed attack? In most cases, no. But that doesn't change the fact that if you seek out a fight with someone weaker than you, like Nuno did, you really deserve to have someone drop you. I think a taser would have been a more appropriate choice of weapon though...
    ...

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    R.I.P.

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