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  1. #11
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I kind of have a mixed impression from this.. I used to be a bully. I could have easily gotten caught up in doing something stupid, and had it fly in my face.. and I wouldn't be typing here. I don't know what makes me more deserving for being alive now. It seems like every kid, even a bully, should get a chance to live 20 years later and reflect on what a dumbass they were.

    At the same time, he's fair game. I think it's kind of cool what happened. Maybe if I had been the bully myself, I might think "Damn.. good job bro" as I gave my last breath, lying in a puddle of my own blood and stupidity. I would have deserved it.

    This isn't meant to be an argument. Just some thoughts.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    You can't tell a bully ''leave me alone'', that would never work.
    That said, self defense would be a valid argument, imo, as the killer probably had the firm conviction that he was just defending himself. I mean, he was just 14, we can't expect him to have the mental resilience of an adult.
    Just as a matter of interest here, would you expect an adult experiencing the same things as this young person did from other adults to act in a different way? What way? As you say politely asking to be left alone simply wouldnt work. Other sorts of avoidance did not seem to be working out here either.

    I've experienced sudden and unexpected violence, my brother has experienced it more than me unfortunately in Belfast, being knocked unconscious when he attempted to walk fast away from a group of thugs who had shouted at him from across a street, he awoke in a police land rover, in northern ireland that can be traumatic enough as these are armoured cars with armed officers in a team in them.

    Now those experiences have formed my judgements about reasonable force and even reasonableness, some addiitonal reading on human psychology has influenced it too, on trauma and resilience to stress, threat perception and decisions facing jeopardy.

    The reality is that attempting to use minimal force in violent situations will cause them to last longer, involve more harm and very possibly aggrievate the situation massively, what started out as an assault is no grievous bodily harm or attempted murder or even murder. Its as simple as that.

    Hell, this is a plot line which is frequently reflected in many modern horror films, like Wolf Creek, Creep, Urban Explorers, in all those features the victims subdue temporarily or believe they have subdued their assailants/attackers only to be murdered horribly because they have taken the least forceful course.

    I am not saying that every possible means should be used to avoid that kind of scenario, avoidance is not the same thing as cowardice, this is taught absolutely seriously to operatives in the intelligence community and others who have the option of lethal force in ways that the ordinary citizen would not. Even, much less dramatically, other professionals such as Doctors, Nurses, social workers, teahers, prison officers, who are all, unfortunately, subject to force from time to time are taught to get away were possible. I've known professionals who've had to lock themselves in offices, call for police support, and that has been their protective recourse from individuals who have gone on to much more violent things.

    Just interested in what this all means because these opinions could be indicative of a culture which stacks the deck against the peaceable and law abidding.

  3. #13
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    As much as I don't think that violence is the response to violence, at the same time I don't understand how the one who is being attacked has to be the one to check their force.

    Fighting is serious business. Initiating is kind of putting your fate into someone else's hands as far as I'm concerned. If you want to fight without risk of escalated reprisal then go to a gym or martial arts club.

  4. #14
    royal member Rasofy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Just as a matter of interest here, would you expect an adult experiencing the same things as this young person did from other adults to act in a different way? What way?
    Yes. A sane adult should know that he must either call the police, sue the bully, or gtfo. Since bullying is something continuous, one with enough mental maturity is able to carefully weigh the options.
    As you say politely asking to be left alone simply wouldnt work. Other sorts of avoidance did not seem to be working out here either.
    I've experienced sudden and unexpected violence, my brother has experienced it more than me unfortunately in Belfast, being knocked unconscious when he attempted to walk fast away from a group of thugs who had shouted at him from across a street, he awoke in a police land rover, in northern ireland that can be traumatic enough as these are armoured cars with armed officers in a team in them.
    That's a bit worse than bullying in my dictionary.

  5. #15
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Lark

    Evade, subdue, or go all out can be a difficult choice.

    Normally I'd say it's either evade or go all out.

    Fighting back has its own risks and I really think is reserved for cases where you really feel you're in life or death and can't evade. Mainly because if you fail you can end up with a more enraged attacker.

  6. #16
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    @Lark

    Evade, subdue, or go all out can be a difficult choice.

    Normally I'd say it's either evade or go all out.

    Fighting back has its own risks and I really think is reserved for cases where you really feel you're in life or death and can't evade. Mainly because if you fail you can end up with a more enraged attacker.
    I agree with that, it says with more economy of words what I was trying to say.

    To be honest I think this kid was lucky that the aggressor, more confident about violence, didnt just take the knife off him and use it on him.

  7. #17
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    supposedly he continually tried to avoid confrontation and was being bullied by someone 2 years older than him. also, I doubt this was an isolated occurrence. this kid had probably been bullying him for awhile previously. I side with the defendant. it's an unfortunate turn of events, but I think there is clear evidence that he felt threatened and had to choose between fighting back or continually being bullied. he responded excessively, but HELLO! he's a 14 year old boy scared for his life who is probably a naturally more conflict avoidant person and had no idea what he was doing/how to do it. while I don't wish this fate on any school aged person, I think this story should serve as an example for bullies around the world. one of these days, someone's gonna hit back, and when they do it will be fast, hard and unpredictable. mistreating people has consequences.

    @Lark
    awesome quotes!
    Edit: your views on this subject are refreshingly libertarian
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rasofy View Post
    Yes. A sane adult should know that he must either call the police, sue the bully, or gtfo. Since bullying is something continuous, one with enough mental maturity is able to carefully weigh the options.

    That's a bit worse than bullying in my dictionary.
    Well, we maybe need to consider what is being discussed by the term bullying, to me its just the same as or what adults call intimidation or menaces, why arent the same words used? Well in part I think its because the adult and child/adolescents worlds are still treated as seperate and the child/adolescents is often disempowered relative to the adult, sometimes reasonably so but most of the time when its a similar challenge or behaviour being discussed its not fair.

    I experienced a lot of intimidation, menacing behaivour, violence, fighting and victimisation as a kid and adolescent, I'll not forget most of it for as long as I live, the whole time and now I know that if something similar was going on between adults it would have resulted in convictions pronto.

  9. #19
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    @Lark
    awesome quotes!
    Edit: your views on this subject are refreshingly libertarian
    No they are not.

    Malcolm X wouldnt have thought much of your libertarianism, I can tell you that for free.

  10. #20
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No they are not.
    Malcolm X wouldnt have thought much of your libertarianism, I can tell you that for free.
    I'm not saying either you or Malcolm X are libertarian, but your views on force as justified force in the name of self defense are extremely libertarian. defending your rights, freedoms and physical safety are really at the heart of Libertarianism.
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