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  1. #181
    FigerPuppet
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I still don't believe that 'reasonable force' is so cut and dry, though. Where I grew up people would get seriously hurt - some times killed - after the simple 'fist fight' took place. You think that you don't have to respond with great force because they are just punching you, but the problem is that some times once they get you down and not seriously or permanently hurt, but rendered defenseless, they curb stomp your face in.

    Death or severe injury is not always readily apparent and there may be a point of no return where you must act strongly or forego your chance to ever defend at all.
    This is true, and I also agreed that using the knife to incapacitate Nuno would have been justified given the circumstances. But what you're saying is that approaching any fist fight as if it is life-threatening can be justified because it could possibly result in your death. This worries me because far from all fights turn life-threatening.

  2. #182
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    This is true, and I also agreed that using the knife to incapacitate Nuno would have been justified given the circumstances. But what you're saying is that regarding any fist fight as life-threatening can be justified because it might have the possibility of being the end of one's life. This worries me, because it isn't true.
    Not really, no. I don't think it's always justified.

    I think the main issue here though is case law backfiring. It's problematic going both ways when we try to pin down specified rules for things.

  3. #183
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Not really, no. I don't think it's always justified.

    I think the main issue here though is case law backfiring. It's problematic going both ways when we try to pin down specified rules for things.
    It's the ridiculous way Florida's Stand Your Ground law is written, as a justification and immunity to prosecution rather than an affirmative defense. It gave the judge a lot of leeway, and she didn't want to put the kid away for killing the kid who bullied him. The law gave her enough of a loophole to do that.

    The worst part is that county judges in Florida are elected to office. She very well could have dismissed this case because she didn't want to be seen as the judge who locked up the poor bullied kid, facing the wrath of the electorate.

  4. #184
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    Having been the target of bullying in the past (jocks/preps/rich kids versus skaters/punks/poor kids, among other things), I did and would beat the immortal daylights out of anyone attempting to "do" me. Anybody stepping to you needs to get dispatched to halt any further attempts. However, I would not have resorted to knives, and where the HELL were the adults?! The teachers? The bus driver? The PARENTS? Anybody responsible?? Why was this kid Jorge left to make this decision himself? Why wasn't Dylan dealt with by school authorities?

    Jorge was clearly NOT armed with any decent coping skills whatsoever, so either his undercooked teenage brain said "A knife will work" as a deterrant etc, OR the kid was waiting for a chance to stick someone. That last scenario rings false because he was going out of his way to run from Dylan in other forms, like getting off the bus at other stops or not taking the bus at all.

    This is the first I've heard of the Stand Your Ground thing.
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  5. #185
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    Having been the target of bullying in the past (jocks/preps/rich kids versus skaters/punks/poor kids, among other things), I did and would beat the immortal daylights out of anyone attempting to "do" me. Anybody stepping to you needs to get dispatched to halt any further attempts. However, I would not have resorted to knives, and where the HELL were the adults?! The teachers? The bus driver? The PARENTS? Anybody responsible?? Why was this kid Jorge left to make this decision himself? Why wasn't Dylan dealt with by school authorities?

    Jorge was clearly NOT armed with any decent coping skills whatsoever, so either his undercooked teenage brain said "A knife will work" as a deterrant etc, OR the kid was waiting for a chance to stick someone. That last scenario rings false because he was going out of his way to run from Dylan in other forms, like getting off the bus at other stops or not taking the bus at all.

    This is the first I've heard of the Stand Your Ground thing.
    I read about Stand Your Ground because of the CeCe McDonald a transwoman who was assaulted along with her friends in a hate crime and used a pair of scissors to defend herself after one assailant attacked her with broken glass and cut her face. She ended up stabbing the other guy, a skin head with a swastika tattoo. She was charged with 2nd degree murder. MN is NOT a 'stand your ground' state. Also, her case is bs of course. It shows you who society values and who it doesn't.

    This student case in particular with the knife reminds me very much of a case I came across while working at a "student exchange program" between the US and former USSR. Kids from the former USSR get sent to bumblefrack nowhere US to get inculcated in US values and spread them back in their home countries. It's a competitive selection process, moreso if you aren't from a favored country with good US diplomatic relations.

    One kid who was chosen was immediately teased and targeted at his overwhelmingly white school in the middle of nowhere because "he wasn't really Russian, he was Asian". The harassment got so bad that the kid brought a knife to school. He showed it to one of his bullies, he did not grab it nor point it at anyone, let alone threaten anyone, let alone attack anyone. He got expelled from school and the program and sent back home. His host mom gave him some sanctimonious lecture about "how disappointed" she was.

    In that case, I think it was more testament to how poorly supported/run the program was and also a failure of school officials and his host family to understand what was going on and intervene. I was in the home office so I saw the kind of people who were the selection panel for the program and what kind of Cold War holdover was pushing the program down to what kind of families were chosen to host. They were poorly equipped to handle this kind of situation.

    US schools have become a lot more sensitive due to lawsuits and high profile suicides but often have large gaps when it comes to prevention. Even if individual teachers notice bullying is going on, I think there's a sense of "that's just life", rarely is there a cohesive plan in place to deal with bullying or rout it out.
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  6. #186
    The Black Knight Domino's Avatar
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    That makes me sick. I will never understand murderous ignorance. Why kill someone because they're transgender? That's idiotic.
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  7. #187
    Senior Member Joehobo's Avatar
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    Unfortunate situation with unfortunate consequences. Sadly, nuno had lost his life in the process. Although I don't particularly believe Jorge had the intent to kill, I don't think it is entirely relevant given the evidence in this particular case either. Had Dylan removed himself from the situation, or decided not to engage in aggressive behavior he would not have lost his life. It should be noted as well that a bigger issue here is that Dylan seems to of been encouraged by fellow students in this behavior, that is probably is whats going to resort in bigger issues in future that these kids had in their mind that the situation was OKAY.

    Also note to the people stating 12 stabbings is overkill. Yes from where your sitting it is. In the situation where your life is threatened, it definitely is not. Infact, if jorge also FEARED retribution for his inital reaction of the first stabbing, he would instinctively continue to do so until dylan is dead. Not because of some conscious decision before hand, but because the idea is fixed within his mind that if he doesn't he himself will likely die.

    EDIT: Anyone who has experienced the flight or fight response at a young age in a situation you feel there is no escape, you should be able to understand the situation which jorge was likely pushed to. In my own experiences, I usually took the beating. This was because the fight response was reinforced that their would be retribution to be had for defending yourself.

  8. #188
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joehobo View Post
    Unfortunate situation with unfortunate consequences. Sadly, nuno had lost his life in the process. Although I don't particularly believe Jorge had the intent to kill, I don't think it is entirely relevant given the evidence in this particular case either. Had Dylan removed himself from the situation, or decided not to engage in aggressive behavior he would not have lost his life. It should be noted as well that a bigger issue here is that Dylan seems to of been encouraged by fellow students in this behavior, that is probably is whats going to resort in bigger issues in future that these kids had in their mind that the situation was OKAY.

    Also note to the people stating 12 stabbings is overkill. Yes from where your sitting it is. In the situation where your life is threatened, it definitely is not. Infact, if jorge also FEARED retribution for his inital reaction of the first stabbing, he would instinctively continue to do so until dylan is dead. Not because of some conscious decision before hand, but because the idea is fixed within his mind that if he doesn't he himself will likely die.
    Intent was not relevant because it is not an element of Florida's second-degree murder statute; all that is required is that the death be caused by an imminently dangerous act and evincing a depraved mind on the part of the defendant. Nuno's acts were only relevant as far as proving the self-defense justification.

    The statutory standard for the justified use of deadly force is a reasonable apprehension of imminent serious bodily injury or death. This is a so-called "objective" standard, based on whether a Platonic "reasonable person" would have determined an immediate apprehension of serious bodily injury or death. Saavedra's subjective evaluation of the situation is not relevant; the court would instead look to a reasonable person's view in that situation.

    This is why I disagree with Florida's Stand Your Ground statute. To me, that is a question of fact for the jury, and not something a judge should determine arbitrarily before trial as a matter of law. The State is trapped in a bind on appeal, as the appeals court cannot consider facts in question that have not been determined by a jury, but the State could only disprove the reasonableness of the use of deadly force after having proven its case for second-degree murder. With immunity for the defendant, it cannot do this on the appeals level, nor could it as a matter of principle, as this would violate the prohibition against double jeopardy, since the case would be tried again upon remand. Just a terribly written law.

  9. #189
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Looking names up on facebook is always fun these days.




    "Your gone but not forgotten.
    Dylan Filthysz Nuno."

    Sounds like they did it right.
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  10. #190
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domino View Post
    That makes me sick. I will never understand murderous ignorance. Why kill someone because they're transgender? That's idiotic.
    I have a theory about the rage felt towards individuals who fall outside traditional gender roles and sexual orientation. In cases where men excessively dominate women, the concept of sexuality is based on this feeling of dominating another human being. The woman is object, property, submissive, and must obey. This deep concept of sexual desire as a way of fulfilling a sense of personal power runs even deeper than conscious thought. When man instilled with these assumptions encounters a man who has the capacity to feel sexual desire towards another man (and the assumption is that the transgendered person is not truly the gender they identify with), this means that such a man is capable of desiring to dominate other men. This is seen as an afront to this sense of personal power, and is seen as a direct insult that must be dominated and destroyed to maintain that personal power.

    There are certainly other motivations that play into it, but this is one strain of thought that could explain that rage.

    Apologies for the quick off-topic, but it happened to be something I've thought a lot about.
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