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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    His intentions become very clear once he shows the knife to people on the bus before he will have to make the flight/fight-decision. He has known the entire day that this decision will have to be made; he chose to flee by stepping off the bus. Then he was confronted and forced to fight. He had prepared for this eventuality by carrying a knife. Do you really think what was going through his head was: "Hey! That guy hit me in the back of the head, which carries a very small risk of deadly injury! Good thing it just so happens I brought ME KNOIFE." No, he was surrounded and the only way he could win the fight was probably to use the knife, but that doesn't justify its use. Again, there is only one justified use if it, and that is if you're fearing for your life, which I seriously doubt the kid was. He was very angry and afraid, but not afraid for his life. Afraid for getting bruised, more likely.

    things always seem clear in hindsight or standing outside a situation, but very much different when you are up to the chest high in whats going on. i dont think you can really divine what the guy was thinking.
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  2. #132
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swivelinglight View Post
    You probably do not. If you had you would quote a personal experience regarding a similar situation.
    I do have a bit of experience. when I took fencing our coach knew how to use several different weapons which he periodically gave us lessons on them. a few times, he gave us lessons in knife fighting and, for the most part, it's pretty intuitive (it gets a little more complicated when you are facing an opponent who also has a knife, especially if they are trained, but just stabbing someone? that doesn't take any thinking whatsoever)

    Rather you referred to our ancestors use of weaponry as if it were evidence that it is a part of our instinctual make up. I guess creating fire is also an instinctual ability rather than a trait learned.
    completely irrelevant. you're not in a fight or flight situation when starting a fire. it's not instinctual. when you are using a weapon, it is a fight or flight situation
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  3. #133
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swivelinglight View Post
    I agree. It becomes part of your muscle memory. We do not know if the person has had extensive use practicing his use of the knife on targets.

    If he had then sure it could be a natural reaction to stab the assaulter. I however, do not believe he has had extensive use of his knife. Ofc this is conjecture (had to say it again, just for Lark because I know he loves it), if I'm right though....then he was very aware of what he was doing.
    We know that he was chased by Dylan when he tried to run. Jorge then turned, and presumably pulled out the knife. He was scared and had a knife in his hands. He obviously intended to use the knife, but it doesn't take much to lash out at someone with a knife in hand and cause serious harm. He didn't carefully butcher Dylan, he stabbed him.
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  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasoline View Post
    in this situation naive. street fights are never fair fights, you are not fighting in a ring, a controlled environment, where a hand or someone would come out of no where and save you.

    the bully did not let up, he took it too far and the guy was afraid of him.


    do you feel that its okay to live in constant terror under someone? constantly be harassed. have you ever had someone exert so much force on you and been outnumbered and you can feel the lack of concern behind the impact their fist makes in your face? its easy to empathize.

    cops are great only for after the fact and even than there is always some slap on the wrist, little community service. i can see where there are issues with the stand your ground law, the zimmerman case. in this situation, i dont think the kid should be penalized for defending himself and having to continue to endure a miserable existence. do you?
    Yet another slippery slope. How much misery should one have to endure until it is alright to end the life of the personal terrorist? How do we quantify it? Should employees be allowed to murder their shitty bosses?

    The crux of the issue is that the bully ended up dying. Had he not died, it would have been an entirely different matter due to the unfortunate situation that Saavedra was put in, in terms of strength and numbers. But the case is transformed both morally and legally once Saavedra terminates the bully's life; for while are quite a few things that can justify the use of a knife, there is only one thing - in this situation - that can justify the taking of another person's life: If you believe your life is in imminent danger. I keep repeating this, but you people are constantly making up crazy justifications for murder/manslaughter.

    I was asked by @Tyrinth to prove that Saavedra wasn't fearing for his life. Of course Tyrinth knows that I cannot do this, and thinks that this somehow devalues what I'm saying. But all any of us can do is to take a look at the situation, put ourselves into Saavedra's position and figure out whether or not he had reason to fear for his life; I do not think so.

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrinth View Post
    I agree with that. I just can't agree with your arguement that he had to be in some amazingly clear state of mind to be able to use a knife effectively. It's a simple tool which can be wielded easily by anyone who isn't scared of the blade in pretty much any state of mind.
    What I'm trying to point at is that if he had extensive use then it would be an impulsive reaction to use the knife. It would be like punching another using your fist. It's apart of you, as you put it.

    However, if he has not had extensive use then it is a foreign object. There's a much more deliberate state of mind when employing the weapon...a much more logical state of mind.

  6. #136
    Senior Member BlueGray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swivelinglight View Post
    What I'm trying to point at is that if he had extensive use then it would be an impulsive reaction to use the knife. It would be like punching another using your fist. It's apart of you, as you put it.

    However, if he has not had extensive use then it is a foreign object. There's a much more deliberate state of mind when employing the weapon...a much more logical state of mind.
    People use knives to eat. Children often swing around sticks and toy weapons. Utilizing a knife in your hand as a weapon is not a terribly foreign idea. We have no evidence that he utilized it in an efficient manner that required clear thought. Explain why using a weapon requires clarity of thought.
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  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swivelinglight View Post
    What I'm trying to point at is that if he had extensive use then it would be an impulsive reaction to use the knife. It would be like punching another using your fist. It's apart of you, as you put it.

    However, if he has not had extensive use then it is a foreign object. There's a much more deliberate state of mind when employing the weapon...a much more logical state of mind.
    As I said in the rep I sent you... stabbing really isn't that different motion wise than punching, punch with a knife in your hand, and you're pretty damn close to an effective stabbing motion. I don't buy your argument that the stabbing motion meant he was in a deliberate state of mind.

    Now, if he had done slicing motions targeting the jugular vein, or carotid, or femoral arteries, you know, something obviously targeted, then I might buy that he was being deliberate and trying to kill the guy. But random stabbing attacks all over the body? Nah, that screams distress and anything but deliberate.
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  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post

    I was asked by @Tyrinth to prove that Saavedra wasn't fearing for his life. Of course Tyrinth knows that I cannot do this, and thinks that somehow this devalues what I'm saying. But all any of us can do is to take a look at the situation and determine whether or not he had reason to fear for his life; I do not think so.
    Nah, I don't think it devalues what you're saying, but I do agree that you can't prove it. Your opinion is your opinion, and I'll let you have it, but my opinion differs from the one you hold, so it is my job to point out where your argument is weak.
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  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Yeah, we don't know all of the facts, and yet you side with the manslayer for one reason alone: His victim was a bully. This brings me back to why I think you must have been scarred by a bully at some point in your life.
    Who hasn't been scarred with perceived bullying? It doesn't even matter if we're scarred directly by it or not, all it takes is a simple association. Like, you know, what might lead one to confuse actual bullying with perceived bullying.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by SmileyMan View Post
    Yet another legal slippery slope. How much misery should one have to endure until it is alright to end the life of the personal terrorist?

    The crux of the issue is that the bully ended up dying. Had he not died, it would have been an entirely different matter due to the unfortunate situation that Saavedra was put in, in terms of strength and numbers. But the case is transformed both morally and legally once Saavedra terminates the bully's life; for while are quite a few things that can justify the use of a knife, there is only one thing - in this situation - that can justify the taking of another person's life: If you believe your life is in imminent danger. I keep repeating this, but you people are constantly making up crazy justifications for murder/manslaughter.
    he must have thought that.
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