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  1. #81
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    While both have long worked in D.C., they are still far more similar to each other than to Romney. I don't know if Biden can effectively portray Ryan as an elitist without opening himself up to the same charges.
    I definitely think he can. Both his style and his voting record compared to Ryan's gives him a safe birth on that approach. The Obama administration has recognized this enough to use Biden as a surrogate to connect with people, and Obama himself is not a man with any deficit of charisma.
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  2. #82
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post

    Our absurdly left-wing media will obviously try to distort the issue, but I don't see how they can for three full months.

    (completely putting aside the fact that each and every one of them who attempts to do so should be hanged for treason.)
    (I'd be very... umm... "conservative" about throwing the term treason around. You might want to leave an option in your worldview for people to disagree honestly. Some percentage will be dishonest, but that's sadly true of every human endeavor.)

    Yes, horrible liberals like Bruce Bartlett (domestic policy advisor to Reagan, treasury official under G.H.W. Bush):

    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Bartlett
    Any tax reform plan that simply asserts it will collect a certain percentage of GDP in revenues while specifying the rate structure but not defining the tax base is fundamentally dishonest, in my opinion.

    [...]

    I do not believe any of this will ever happen or could ever happen. I think Ryan has an undeserved reputation for seriousness in budget matters. The word “fantasy” would better apply. As Prof. Calvin Johnson of the University of Texas law school told me, the tax side of Ryan’s plan “is floating in the clouds without any connection to earth or reality.” And of course accomplishing what he hopes to do on the spending side is even more fanciful.
    Or David Frum (economic speechwriter for George W. Bush):

    Quote Originally Posted by David Frum
    The Romney-Ryan team will tell you that fixing Medicare is crucial to their plans for economic growth. By assuring markets that Medicare costs will grow more slowly after 2023, a Medicare fix -- it's argued -- will ignite job creation in 2013. In the meantime, federal spending cuts and upper-income tax cuts will restore business confidence.

    Will voters accept this argument? Possibly, although relatively few economists will do so.

    Most economists would draw a distinction between the government's fiscal problems over the medium term and the economy's problems in the near term. The economy's near-term problems can be traced to the housing crisis.
    I don't know about your employer, but my employer can barely see beyond the next quarter. If you believe that reducing medicare costs after 2023 will cause employers to go on a hiring frenzy tomorrow... you've smoked something awesome!

    And I do think it's a case that Ryan fit a certain narrative that people really wanted to be true... of the conservative centrist policy wonk, who was earnestly grappling with the hard problems. Sadly, conservatives tend to equate toughness and simplicity (of narrative) with realism, as liberals tend to equate complexity and mercy with realism. We all have our weaknesses.

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    (I'd be very... umm... "conservative" about throwing the term treason around. You might want to leave an option in your worldview for people to disagree honestly. Some percentage will be dishonest, but that's sadly true of every human endeavor.)
    No, treason is exactly what I am going for.

    To try to falsely convince seniors that the Ryan Plan will take away their Medicare, in order to win the election, is, imo, treasonous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Yes, horrible liberals like Bruce Bartlett (domestic policy advisor to Reagan, treasury official under G.H.W. Bush):

    Or David Frum (economic speechwriter for George W. Bush):
    Neither of those have anything to do with what I had been addressing.

  4. #84
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Neither of those have anything to do with what I had been addressing.
    First, your previous post was a link of a debate (that particular video clip was a monologue) of Ryan claiming that Obama's budget had used smoke and mirrors. I just linked conservatives arguing that Ryan's plan was at least as bad. How was that different that what your video was addressing?

    Secondly, you had previously argued that supply-side techniques (in particular, things to increase employer confidence) were applicable to the current crisis (resulting from the housing crisis), and I just referenced a conservative arguing that the problem was more on the demand side.

    So I fail to see how neither quotation from conservatives addressed things you had recently posted. Maybe I missed something since yesterday?

    I still agree that Ryan is intelligent, articulate and personable (as I stated previously). That has little to do with the seriousness of his plan.

    (BTW, I don't think Obama is perfect. He could be far better on civil liberties, privacy, indefinite detention, etc... I just believe he's better than the alternatives currently available.)

  5. #85

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    Some simple factual questions to start (I haven't been following Ryan too closely):

    Did Ryan ask the CBO to do their calculations based on total government spending (including defense, education, healthcare, infrastructure, etc.) dropping to 3.75% of GDP by 2050?

    Did Romney then promise that he would keep it above 4%?

    Has military spending alone dropped below 3% of GDP, ever?

    If there are apparent discrepancies between the factual answers above, what accounts for these discrepancies?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Some simple factual questions to start (I haven't been following Ryan too closely):

    Did Ryan ask the CBO to do their calculations based on total government spending (including defense, education, healthcare, infrastructure, etc.) dropping to 3.75% of GDP by 2050?

    Did Romney then promise that he would keep it above 4%?

    Has military spending alone dropped below 3% of GDP, ever?

    If there are apparent discrepancies between the factual answers above, what accounts for these discrepancies?
    We don't even know the difference between the Ryan Plan and the Romney Plan yet.

    The media didn't give Ryan a second to breathe after they announced. The article titles have been ridiculous.

    When Obama was running in '08 the media had you thinking it was black jesus running for president.

    EDIT - military spending has been much higher and somewhat lower as a percentage of GDP.

  7. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    We don't even know the difference between the Ryan Plan and the Romney Plan yet.

    The media didn't give Ryan a second to breathe after they announced. The article titles have been ridiculous.

    When Obama was running in '08 the media had you thinking it was black jesus running for president.
    Fair enough. I suppose it will take some time to get seemingly good sources of factual information.

    Then a more opinion laden questions:
    Does the Ryan choice signal anything regarding the "culture war" that some conservatives are itching to wage?

    Is this election still about the economy, or is there a cultural/social referendum that will be inferred/assumed if I vote Republican this cycle?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Fair enough. I suppose it will take some time to get seemingly good sources of factual information.

    Then a more opinion laden questions:
    Does the Ryan choice signal anything regarding the "culture war" that some conservatives are itching to wage?

    Is this election still about the economy, or is there a cultural/social referendum that will be inferred/assumed if I vote Republican this cycle?
    Paul Ryan is as restrained as he can be on social issues, and still be considered a serious conservative. You can't make it on the Republican ticket if you don't say you're against abortion.

  9. #89
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Paul Ryan is as restrained as he can be on social issues, and still be considered a serious conservative. You can't make it on the Republican ticket if you don't say you're against abortion.
    Yes, but do you have to give fetuses full personhood and vote to defund Planned Parenthood and Title X (which helps fund family planning for the poor)?

    Also, Paul Ryan has about the worst gay rights voting record of anyone (or best, if one is against the expansion of gay rights), excepting one vote for ENDA.

    His voting record is pretty much in line with Michelle Bachmann's (although one can argue that Ryan entered congress at a time when Republican's were being particularly self-disciplined about voting as a bloc). So, whether he talks about it or not, I wouldn't consider him a social moderate.

    (Although I'm happy to hear evidence to the contrary.)

  10. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Does the Ryan choice signal anything regarding the "culture war" that some conservatives are itching to wage?
    Looks more like class war to me. I think 'culture' is just the polite word for 'class'.

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