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  1. #21
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    Lark, I see what you're saying about the North South economic divide, but, I don't know... I'm from London, it's hard enough finding work here lol, Just because I'm from the rich part of the country, doesn't mean I'm rich, I'm not, I owe wonga.com for my loan and... Someone else too, right now, I'm poor.

    KDude... India... Have an 8% GDP, and in India, it is common practise to marry off daughters into wealthy families, it's called a dowry; that's Indian business ethics.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilikeitlikethat View Post
    Lark, I see what you're saying about the North South economic divide, but, I don't know... I'm from London, it's hard enough finding work here lol, Just because I'm from the rich part of the country, doesn't mean I'm rich, I'm not, I owe wonga.com for my loan and... Someone else too, right now, I'm poor.

    KDude... India... Have an 8% GDP, and in India, it is common practise to marry off daughters into wealthy families, it's called a dowry; that's Indian business ethics.


    Dont personalise it dude, I'm not saying you're rich, I'm just saying what you're describing as quite horrendous and happening abroad happens here in a particular shape or form too, although we got serious disintegrating culture issues the Chinese do not appear to have.

    So far as business ethics go, business is business, you think that there arent deals like that done here? Did you hear the news story about the parents who murdered their daughter because she refused an arranged marriage in Pakistan? It was on the radio today so you're bound to have and its been an on going case for a while in the courts.

    Dowry's are not an Indian invention either, they happen here too, there's been a long tradition of them and there are still arrangements when a marriage happens here, for instance the brides family is traditionally meant to pay for the wedding and reception. It doesnt always happen but the romantic idea of love is a relatively recent innovation in the west. Its not the deciding factor in marriages among the fortune five hundred yet either I would wager.

    Anyone can have a concern about China without demonising China, they are just playing the game, Britain has been playing it longer is all.

  3. #23
    F CK all I need is U ilikeitlikethat's Avatar
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    Yes, I heard about those Pakistani parents who murdered their 17yr old daughter, that's just one fine example of how ethics in the UK are different than of that in Pakistan.

    Despite all of that, I still say China's worse.

  4. #24
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I wasn't referring to India's dowry issues. I was comparing it more to what you said about postal codes. People are born into merchant, brahman, etc classes. It's changing now, but for thousands of years, you were born into being a certain class. So this stuff is nothing new.. but it's harder to crack than China's laws probably, since they are sacred laws. China keeps changing it's mind on a lot of things. I don't think they (at least now) are as set in stone in all of this bullshit as you make it out to be. I suspect they won't even carry the Communist mantle for long.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I wasn't referring to India's dowry issues. I was comparing it more to what you said about postal codes. People are born into merchant, brahman, etc classes. It's changing now, but for thousands of years, you were born into being a certain class. So this stuff is nothing new.. but it's harder to crack than China's laws probably, since they are sacred laws. China keeps changing it's mind on a lot of things. I don't think they (at least now) are as set in stone in all of this bullshit as you make it out to be. I suspect they won't even carry the Communist mantle for long.
    Economically they've all but given it up anyway, they do have a system of Leninist democratic centralism or something like it, there's not the division of powers between commons, lords/upper house and the courts like in western democracies, the split between elected legislator and judicary isnt there are the figure head, ie president or monarch, is not seperate from the democratically elected government (I know that happens in the US too were the president is the leader of the majority party but its different from being the chairman in a one party state).

    The government is elected though, there is voting and delegation and representation, in a variety of forms which do not resemble western world. I definitely do no see the Chinese giving up on any of these, not at all, these are things which for the Chinese I believe transcend the modern idea of communism and are akin to oriental bureaucracy or dynastic rule.

    In some ways I think that even the western world has come to resemble more closely dynastic rule or rule by elite wealthy families or graduates from elite institutions anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ilikeitlikethat View Post
    That's just messed up. The fact that there's cultral reasons and taboos that end up you carrying on as normal if you see a child hit and ran over twice if it's not your own.
    I didn't say it wasn't messed up (much of human nature is), only that it's not the simple black-and-white issue that you pretend. Every culture has its problems.

  7. #27
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    I think China does not have what it takes to become the superpower. The US, for all the current decline, did and does. But there is something emerging as a global undercurrent that seems like it will be with us for a long time. Basically, China becoming more and more of a global institution but being really, really cheap about it.

    Cheap is a good word for Chinese, which is to say Beijing-originated, diplomacy and world engagement. Cheap shots, cheap complaints, cheap logic. Which is astoundingly unsettling given the weaponry they can back it up with. So, world, count yourselves lucky that China really isn't going to become a world leader. They don't want to come out of the home country. They don't have global ambitions beyond being praised. Everything is about the hometown.

    What's interesting is the long term view. It's not clear just how far into the future anyone in Chinese leadership searches, but it is clear that Chinese culture functions on very long timescales. There's a great emphasis on maintaining harmony, which, however you parse it, as some enlightened I Ching nonsense or as a lie to cover corruption, is stability by another name. The very cheapness of Chinese diplomacy is a product of this harmony-seeking, stability-promoting, face-saving understanding of what and how society works.

    Face, incidentally, is not some kind of disposable joke. And we should probably give up the idea that everyone likes saving face. Everyone does, but the timescales used by non-Chinese are too small for the concept to have the same effect. Face, harmony, stability... on a Chinese conception these all extend in impact well beyond the lifeline of the person.

    Which is not to say face forbids a person from being the most brutal, money-grubbing, short sighted peasant he can be. He's just forbidden from thinking that today is the only day there is.

    Which is in itself also interesting given just how ruthlessly tomorrow is being underminded by Chinese expansion. The environment is going right down the tubes, for one thing. But environmental, scientific, impersonally logical consideration aren't what "tomorrow" is made of, so face and stability and harmony can cope quite well alongside rapacious development.

    My thought is that this kind of thinking can't become more general. It's hard work to accept that kind of culture unless you grew up in it. So Chinese expansion toward world power status has if not built in limits then practical stoppers that'll start some time soon doing something to the way things work.

    Probably.



    This has been a stream of consciousness rant brought to you by half formed thoughts, private angst, and possibly even some intellectual hubris. I'll be at your mom's.


    ETA: the other thing this rant does is almost wholly forget whatever it is China is up to in Africa.

    They're creating nations?
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

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