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  1. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Yes, likely there is nothing to be done (ethically) about the population growth we will experience in the coming century, but I envision a society in which 30 billion plus are able to be sustained. It will take time, it will take lessons learned, and it will be incredibly complex, but it will be done, I can almost promise.





    Oh Lark, you never expose your thoughts well enough for me to understand what you're getting at, lol. The shit you say's like ten layers deep and all I've got is a spade.
    Do you think that believing that degeneration of society is taking place is causing it? That would be a self-fufiling prophecy, peoples observations will be influenced by a confirmation bias, ie they are looking to prove their belief in degeneracy correct and so concentration on unrepresentative information or examples.

    Or that they think and then behave in a manner more likely to make degeneracy or things they can attribute to degeneracy happen, ie paradoxical thinking, Victor Frankl invented this idea to describe how prisoners in concentration camps could behave and think in ways which would inadvertently lead to the attention of guards which they dreaded, this could even result in death.

    Hope this helps.

  2. #22
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Also I forgot to mention another side effect of population spikes.

    If you have a spike followed by a sudden decline in reproduction, eventually you end up with a bunch of old people but few young people.
    Indeed and this is why the combating of the aging process and the development of advances which can help us not just live longer lives, but more beneficial lives is quite important. Lives that are worth living which involve a decent standard of living.

    Although I think it should be noted that my stance on this is not necessarily one of personal gain, though im sure anyone would enjoy living longer, more so that I do not expect too much in my time, but I believe we should set up our systems for the future and give a lot of consideration onto how we might solve problems that might arise.

    In terms of population as I said above the most sensible option as I see it is something similar to what China has now...a series of laws and policies that are designed to reduce the amount of births, or else we would have to increase the amount of deaths. Of course this would depend upon each and every country and how they choose to go through with this.

    The difficulty in this of course is the sense of entitlement, that people should not be told when or how to have a baby, that they should be free to choose what they want. But anyone who considers this in-depth realises the foolishness in such a mindset. Even without set laws, we still have social conduct rules, some useful and some pointless, but they are enforced by a collective social network of human consideration. The point being that humanity will adapt; just wait and see. There may be conflict of course, but I suspect that adaptation will be far more prevelant over time.

    Places like China prove that such reckless mindsets as the ones concerning what we are free to do are naive and do far more damage than good. The reality of humans is that our best chances for survival have always lain between control and freedom. Going too far either way results in far too much damage, not just for ourselves, but for the very eco system we live within.

    I am somewhat reluctant to lay my cards on the table like this, because I know how an individual might think with regards to something as personal as conceiving a child, afterall who am I to dictate what people can or cannot do? But it is not really me; merely necessity that will demand such a compromise.

    But of course this is all just estimation....however it will be nice to see in the future whether or not this eventuality becomes true; should I live long enough.

    Of course this idea contrasts sharply with ethics...fortunately, (or perhaps not depending on your point of view), ethical values are ever changed and morphed within a society to something that is considered of more benefit to that particular society...just take a look at the general opinion to what we now call racism, or attitudes towards abortion or homosexuality.

    Of course there are still throwbacks and other issues that arise out of such changes, but these social causes are slowly melding the collective ethics of local communities into something wholly different than perhaps even as little as 10-20 years ago.

    Then again such things are topics in their own rights and I dont wish to detract too much from the main point.

    Oh as an addition to my point about childbirth laws, they may even only need to be temporary as we could even think up some solution to sustaining a larger population.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Do you think that believing that degeneration of society is taking place is causing it? That would be a self-fufiling prophecy, peoples observations will be influenced by a confirmation bias, ie they are looking to prove their belief in degeneracy correct and so concentration on unrepresentative information or examples.

    Or that they think and then behave in a manner more likely to make degeneracy or things they can attribute to degeneracy happen, ie paradoxical thinking, Victor Frankl invented this idea to describe how prisoners in concentration camps could behave and think in ways which would inadvertently lead to the attention of guards which they dreaded, this could even result in death.

    Hope this helps.

    Ah. I'd go with the self fulfilling prophecy, for sure. People have little faith in humanity and there's plenty of evidence to support their thoughts... Unfortunately, I do not agree with their conclusions. I'll expand when I get back to my computer.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Ah. I'd go with the self fulfilling prophecy, for sure. People have little faith in humanity and there's plenty of evidence to support their thoughts... Unfortunately, I do not agree with their conclusions. I'll expand when I get back to my computer.
    Pessimism I believe is unhelpful but I think realism is important and I can understand pessimism a lot of the time when some of the worst kinds of failure or injustice or hostility are more and more flagrant or obvious.

    For instance, given the sort of cavalier and arrogant behaviour which is typical of UK politicians, like Nick Clegg's "what do you expect? I'm a politician" response to betrayal of mandates, I dont blame anyone being convinced that politics is a game of corruption, now I know that naked capitalists like Clegg want to discredit politics more than they want an on going career in politics themselves but the basic feeling remains.

    I do think that objectively, relative to other nations, there are concrete examples of degeneracy among younger people in some developed nations, the incredible competitive and aspirational qualities of younger people in China for instance in comparison with the odd mix of ambition and demotivation which characterises UK young people.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Pessimism I believe is unhelpful but I think realism is important and I can understand pessimism a lot of the time when some of the worst kinds of failure or injustice or hostility are more and more flagrant or obvious.

    For instance, given the sort of cavalier and arrogant behaviour which is typical of UK politicians, like Nick Clegg's "what do you expect? I'm a politician" response to betrayal of mandates, I dont blame anyone being convinced that politics is a game of corruption, now I know that naked capitalists like Clegg want to discredit politics more than they want an on going career in politics themselves but the basic feeling remains.

    I do think that objectively, relative to other nations, there are concrete examples of degeneracy among younger people in some developed nations, the incredible competitive and aspirational qualities of younger people in China for instance in comparison with the odd mix of ambition and demotivation which characterises UK young people.

    I know what you mean about realism. I suppose it does have its place, but I feel people let what is evident rule what can be.


    @AffirmitiveAnxiety

    You had some good thoughts in this thread.

    @Marmotini

    I totally ignored your argument.



    I wonder if anyone else has more thoughts. I still dwell in these concepts.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    THE ONWARD MOVEMENT OF MAN—THE ENERGY OF THE MOVEMENT—THE THREE WAYS OF INCREASING HUMAN ENERGY.

    Of all the endless variety of phenomena which nature presents to our senses, there is none that fills our minds with greater wonder than that inconceivably complex movement which, in its entirety, we designate as human life; Its mysterious origin is veiled in the forever impenetrable mist of the past, its character is rendered incomprehensible by its infinite intricacy, and its destination is hidden in the unfathomable depths of the future. Whence does it come? What is it? Whither does it tend? are the great questions which the sages of all times have endeavored to answer.

    Modern science says: The sun is the past, the earth is the present, the moon is the future. From an incandescent mass we have originated, and into a frozen mass we shall turn. Merciless is the law of nature, and rapidly and irresistibly we are drawn to our doom. Lord Kelvin, in his profound meditations, allows us only a short span of life, something like six million years, after which time the suns bright light will have ceased to shine, and its life giving heat will have ebbed away, and our own earth will be a lump of ice, hurrying on through the eternal night. But do not let us despair. There will still be left upon it a glimmering spark of life, and there will be a chance to kindle a new fire on some distant star. This wonderful possibility seems, indeed, to exist, judging from Professor Dewar's beautiful experiments with liquid air, which show that germs of organic life are not destroyed by cold, no matter how intense; consequently they may be transmitted through the interstellar space. Meanwhile the cheering lights of science and art, ever increasing in intensity, illuminate our path, and marvels they disclose, and the enjoyments they offer, make us measurably forgetful of the gloomy future.

    Though we may never be able to comprehend human life, we know certainly that it is a movement, of whatever nature it be. The existence of movement unavoidably implies a body which is being moved and a force which is moving it. Hence, wherever there is life, there is a mass moved by a force. All mass possesses inertia, all force tends to persist. Owing to this universal property and condition, a body, be it at rest or in motion, tends to remain in the same state, and a force, manifesting itself anywhere and through whatever cause, produces an equivalent opposing force, and as an absolute necessity of this it follows that every movement in nature must be rhythmical. Long ago this simple truth was clearly pointed out by Herbert Spencer, who arrived at it through a somewhat different process of reasoning. It is borne out in everything we perceive—in the movement of a planet, in the surging and ebbing of the tide, in the reverberations of the air, the swinging of a pendulum, the oscillations of an electric current, and in the infinitely varied phenomena of organic life. Does not the whole of human life attest to it? Birth, growth, old age, and death of an individual, family, race, or nation, what is it all but a rhythm? All life-manifestation, then, even in its most intricate form, as exemplified in man, however involved and inscrutable, is only a movement, to which the same general laws of movement which govern throughout the physical universe must be applicable.
    Source - http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1900-06-00.htm

    If Tesla had been successful in the early part of the 20th Century with Wardenclyffe, and humanity had proceeded on the road to Utopia, by now in the 21st Century...we would be warping ourselves in saucers at the speed of light. Our heightened technology would have drastically raised our consciousness. There could have been another path traveled where there were NO WORLD WARS! Humanity did not have to be plunged into wars somewhere on the planet decade after decade. Technology could have solved the problems of conflict, greed and chaos. People should have had and presently have a much higher standard of Life. We have all been robbed of a technical, material paradise and very few people are aware of it.
    Source - http://www.world-mysteries.com/doug_teslat.htm

    Those are some articles on a grand cosmic vision of the future that will be wrought in another generation.
    you dont have that in Tl:dr ?

  7. #27
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    plus ca change...

    i think we learn more as a species as history goes on. but i also think time moves in spirals, with ebb and flow. sometimes we go backwards in some ways; sometimes forwards. sometimes backwards is forwards, and vice versa. sometimes there is no up or down. humans know when they feel good and whole, and humans know when what they are doing makes sense in the big picture. sometimes we will lead ourselves astray, but the earth - and perhaps the universe itself - has some of its own homeostatic mechanisms. these satisfactions are what we need to achieve; we have no other real guiding mechanisms.

    either way, i think there is much to lose subsuming one's life in woeful mourning and much to gain through pointed action.

  8. #28
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    I shattered grief and depression
    And admired the dark and small miniature garden
    I creep on tiptoe and start to walk while fumbling around
    I pick up a handful of life and head toward this town

    The world spins and spins; this place is reality
    It spins so fast as to make me nauseous
    I looked at the tracks that I made while walking
    And murmured "I only came this far?"

    Cold temperature; even the starting point is too far away
    I turned back and ran away and am alive somehow
    You don't even have hope, you who betrayed lightness
    You who hate the truth need to die

    The world flows; Where is this place?
    It's so far away as to make me nauseous
    I'm dirty and stupid
    So I cling to the feet of people

    The shadow of self is transparent to others
    I killed others and crawled to this place
    Destroyed world - No, there was nothing to begin with
    To my fantasy, good bye

    The world changed; This place is reality
    It's spins so fast as to make me nauseous
    I don't want to live in a place like this
    But I also don't want to die
    Please forgive me

  9. #29
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    i always hear talk about the degradation of the human race, the increased levels of pain and suffering, the disconnection of mind from body, that we're facing certain doom in the coming century.... i'm sure one could go on forever recanting the ways we are losing ourselves.


    i cannot help but feel those that take this stance are severely undermining human history. comments that particularly irk me are ones that speak of the future with mankind out of the picture.

    it seems so naive... maybe i am the naive one?




    i realize the subject is likely well beyond the scope of what can be done in this thread, but what do you think?
    The "human condition" thing kind of makes me 'lol' since I don't know if anyone can understand it's true nature. It's sooooo perception based. This rate of 'advance' could have been unimaginable and also very admirable in history. There are a lot of "new" sad things and philosophies popping up, but when were there not? I think this is a natural progression but as always, so many ways to find suffering and sin in this world. (Key words 'as always'). Just because they are arising from new things (information age, cultures melding) doesn't mean that they are making things worse. We're likely only balancing them with new good things as well....

    The people who think the human condition is worsening may be right, but it's impossible to tell for sure and they are just being Debbie Downers and Negative Nancys and Whiny Wandas and Sad Sandys and all sorts of other terrible middle aged people names combined with negative terms. :/
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
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  10. #30
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shortnsweet View Post
    The "human condition" thing kind of makes me 'lol' since I don't know if anyone can understand it's true nature. It's sooooo perception based. This rate of 'advance' could have been unimaginable and also very admirable in history. There are a lot of "new" sad things and philosophies popping up, but when were there not? I think this is a natural progression but as always, so many ways to find suffering and sin in this world. (Key words 'as always'). Just because they are arising from new things (information age, cultures melding) doesn't mean that they are making things worse. We're likely only balancing them with new good things as well....

    The people who think the human condition is worsening may be right, but it's impossible to tell for sure and they are just being Debbie Downers and Negative Nancys and Whiny Wandas and Sad Sandys and all sorts of other terrible middle aged people names combined with negative terms. :/
    Not being able to figure out the human condition is the human condition.

    The human condition is awareness with a clouded mind. It's not the current status, that's variable.

    It's to be effected by things and have moral and ethical questions. To wonder what their place in life is. To wonder why bad things happen to good people. To weigh their perceptions of good and evil. That's the human condition.

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