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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    The world is plenty sustainable, I do not envision overpopulation ever being a problem in the future.

    I'm also just a guy.
    It that because you're naively unrealistic or do you have scientific reasons why you believe this? Is it wishful thinking, or do you have an argument to present to me why you believe this?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yeah we've had an approximate 3 billion increase just in my own life time. It's pretty creepy, someone is going to have to die. It's nature's way of balancing itself; over-population tends to lead to disease and war, but we have so many treatments against disease and some idealists are so opposed to war that I'd like to know what exactly they think we're going to do.

    There's too many people, and that's stressful. However, I tend to think that people who at least live a more normal-paced life (as opposed to being caught up in the "rat race") are probably overall mentally healthier than what the OP is referring to, and yeah I do think that rat race mentality can and probably will end humans eventually without some of us less ambitious, environmental, new agey people hanging out planning genocide.

    Yeah, I know, that makes no sense; I talk about preserving humanity and the quality of human life in one breath, and how people are going to have to die in another, but I'm not entirely sure that the world as it is, is currently sustainable.
    Yeah it used to be that if things were too bad or cramped, you go explore and find (or conquer) new lands.
    When most of the lands were conquered except Antarctica and heavy rain forest (and even the rain forest isn't safe anymore) we started to use lands in more inventive ways. Huge farms that grow food for entire communities. This was a boon to population growth, but notice how some of the oldest European cities are really cramped with buildings on top of buildings basically.

    First we built out, which made communities very broad, but there's a limit to how far out you can practically build for a given community. So then we started putting stuff in between stuff and stacking it high, but then we reached a point where we couldn't build any higher, so we had to spread out and make new communities which go through the same process.

    Now, our cities are so huge they are barely manageable. We've spread out to nearly the practical limit. We built stuff between stuff, and then spread out again. When areas got very dense and we already put all the stuff between other stuff we could, we invented new architecture and made some of the tallest buildings in the world, but now we're kind of stuck. Those tall buildings are very expensive to make and it will be hard to make them taller in the foreseeable future, so normally we'd go to the spreading out stage again - but that presents a problem too because communities are already at their manageable limit, and we're running out of places to build new ones.

    So we've gone straight back to putting stuff in between stuff, metropolitan areas slowly creep outward, suburbs slowly become urban, rural areas slowly become suburbs. Pretty soon we won't be able to go out, in between, or up.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    i always hear talk about the degradation of the human race, the increased levels of pain and suffering, the disconnection of mind from body, that we're facing certain doom in the coming century.... i'm sure one could go on forever recanting the ways we are losing ourselves.


    i cannot help but feel those that take this stance are severely undermining human history. comments that particularly irk me are ones that speak of the future with mankind out of the picture.

    it seems so naive... maybe i am the naive one?




    i realize the subject is likely well beyond the scope of what can be done in this thread, but what do you think?
    This is a result of a prevailing mentality that pessimism is = or > than realism.

    This is not true of course, ive said before that overt pessimism is just as warping a world view as overt optimism. But where one might help us push forward the other just holds us back and sits in the corner...grumbling.

    Of course neither one is any good when applied with the definer of 'overt'. In moderation they are perspectives that can give useful insights. But in general the world has always leant more towards that of pessimism despite it's advocate's staunch assumption that they are the minority. But ive grown up around pessimism, ive lived it and breathed it, I rarely if ever saw anything resembling optimism in my life.

    But this is an irrelevent detail. Even realism, however that is defined, is still merely the product of the delusion that is human perception. But in regards to us it is accurate since it it within our perspective sphere...our frame of reference.

    The problem is that the duality of both is needed to gain any sort of insight, not necessarily into our future, but into our current mindset. Optimists need pessimism to balance them out to realism and so too do pessimists need optimism for the same reason.

    But people assume the future to be miserable, they assume it to be an end in darkness and cold. This may be true and I do not discount the possibility, which seems to be presented to us as the only possibility. But at the same time there is an enormous....incomparable amount of time between now and then.

    The speculations are myriad, the sun will die in 4.5 billion years, ever tried to imagine 4.5 billion of anything? Or perhaps we will kill ourselves through war and in-fighting?

    Maybe one of our experiments for renewable energy will doom us all? Overpopulation? New dieseses? An ever changing virus that we cannot combat?

    All of these have been speculated and estimated and from this I can say that pessimism has had it's fun. It's had a great time inflicting a miserable mindset upon the population, one of insignificance and hopelessness. Now it is time for a bit of balance to step in and for realism to rear it's head.

    Reminding us that it isn't all bad, that it isn't all misery, that there are hopes as well, as easily as it appears we could all crumble tommorrow, there is also a chance we could prosper.

    Im not talking about optimism here, as I accept that the negative ends that have been posulated and measured may indeed come to pass and they may even have a higher chance of passing as well, especially the sun one which is more like a guarantee than anything else.

    What this is...is the balance, the realism. If we accept that the worst can happen, then we must also accept that the best can happen as well. We are at a turning point once again, the age of technology and not just in electronics, we are making leaps in medical and physics based sciences as well.

    As for population, well I have my suspicions that we shall merely start implementing laws to curtail such problems, not to mention there are studies that have estimated our population will balance out some time in the distant future anyhow.

    But in either case these are merely options, if you give one side consideration, you should give the other consideration as well. Afterall why would you give up just because things seem a little bleak? Just because progress got a little hard? As a species we need our hopes and our dreams to carry us forwards, of course this is within moderation and just as equally we need critical thinking, we need cynicism and doubt so that we may check our hopes and make sure they arent too delusional.

    I suppose all im saying is: Regardless of what end or future we happen to be heading for, wheather it is one of misery or joy, remember that you are here and it is now and it is of more benefit to enjoy it while it lasts, or else spend your life in negative speculation never moving forward...to whatever end may be waiting.
    So use this time to do something if you wish, or not...it is your life afterall, you can progress or you can falter, it is up to you as an individual.

    But always remember the many sides of things and the differing perspectives. Within this lies the truth of all things, weaved together into a whole, which may always be beyond our understanding, but which is there nonetheless.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yeah it used to be that if things were too bad or cramped, you go explore and find (or conquer) new lands.
    When most of the lands were conquered except Antarctica and heavy rain forest (and even the rain forest isn't safe anymore) we started to use lands in more inventive ways. Huge farms that grow food for entire communities. This was a boon to population growth, but notice how some of the oldest European cities are really cramped with buildings on top of buildings basically.

    First we built out, which made communities very broad, but there's a limit to how far out you can practically build for a given community. So then we started putting stuff in between stuff and stacking it high, but then we reached a point where we couldn't build any higher, so we had to spread out and make new communities which go through the same process.

    Now, our cities are so huge they are barely manageable. We've spread out to nearly the practical limit. We built stuff between stuff, and then spread out again. When areas got very dense and we already put all the stuff between other stuff we could, we invented new architecture and made some of the tallest buildings in the world, but now we're kind of stuck. Those tall buildings are very expensive to make and it will be hard to make them taller in the foreseeable future, so normally we'd go to the spreading out stage again - but that presents a problem too because communities are already at their manageable limit, and we're running out of places to build new ones.

    So we've gone straight back to putting stuff in between stuff, metropolitan areas slowly creep outward, suburbs slowly become urban, rural areas slowly become suburbs. Pretty soon we won't be able to go out, in between, or up.

    Cities are unmanageable?

    See, these are the kinds of comments I literally cannot comprehend. Such little faith in humanity.



    There is SO much undeveloped land in the world it's borderline absurd. Not to mention populations always rise to service demanded, and vice versa...

    I don't know, I don't even care anymore. It's something that can't be argued. You either look forward with optimism or dwell on your preconceived notions.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Cities are unmanageable?

    See, these are the kinds of comments I literally cannot comprehend. Such little faith in humanity.



    There is SO much undeveloped land in the world it's borderline absurd. Not to mention populations always rise to service demanded, and vice versa...

    I don't know, I don't even care anymore. It's something that can't be argued. You either look forward with optimism or dwell on your preconceived notions.
    There's plenty of undeveloped land. It's the land we took over and undeveloped.

    I've never liked that term, 'undeveloped'. The land is just perfectly fine and developed the way it is before we get hold of it.

    When development is seen as only 'make useful to humans', then yes my faith does indeed wane.

    And yes cities get inevitably harder to manage the larger they are, unless they are split up into communities. That's a fact that really has nothing to do with humanity. The difficulty of organizing and maintaining infrastructure increases proportionally to the amount that has to be managed or maintained. You need channels and oversight for every x amount of things and sub management for all the levels. It's that or decentralize it and not have it be one city, just a big clump of smaller cities that happen to be touching each other.

    Edit: and right now, New Jersey is saying that 'undeveloped' land is becoming worth more left alone. They came up with a state commission to find out how valuable the land they haven't developed is worth as natural resources to be left undeveloped, because they are losing about 50 acres a day as it stands right now. It's getting to where leaving stuff alone is more valuable than putting something on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    There's plenty of undeveloped land. It's the land we took over and undeveloped.

    I've never liked that term, 'undeveloped'. The land is just perfectly fine and developed the way it is before we get hold of it.

    When development is seen as only 'make useful to humans', then yes my faith does indeed wane.

    And yes cities get inevitably harder to manage the larger they are, unless they are split up into communities. That's a fact that really has nothing to do with humanity. The difficulty of organizing and maintaining infrastructure increases proportionally to the amount that has to be managed or maintained. You need channels and oversight for every x amount of things and sub management for all the levels. It's that or decentralize it and not have it be one city, just a big clump of smaller cities that happen to be touching each other.

    Okay, and do you not think mankind is capable of such organization? Just because something is difficult does not mean it is impossible, or even futile. Efficient city planning is very obtainable and already executed to great extent; We only learn as we grow.


    Development is a contextual word. I understand why you feel the word 'developed' contextual to making land useful for humans is troubling, but I also understand why it is incredibly detrimental to society. To say we "undeveloped" land by developing it is juvenile in the context of human establishment.


    The point I'm really trying to make with this thread is that we as a species will overcome, adapt and advance over any obstacle presented to us, bar catastrophic asteroids or total annihilation via nuclear war (the irony of this second posit is not lost on me).

    "Two steps forward and one step back is still progress"

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Okay, and do you not think mankind is capable of such organization? Just because something is difficult does not mean it is impossible, or even futile. Efficient city planning is very obtainable and already executed to great extent; We only learn as we grow.


    Development is a contextual word. I understand why you feel the word 'developed' contextual to making land useful for humans is troubling, but I also understand why it is incredibly detrimental to society. To say we "undeveloped" land by developing it is juvenile in the context of human establishment.


    The point I'm really trying to make with this thread is that we as a species will overcome, adapt and advance over any obstacle presented to us, bar catastrophic asteroids or total annihilation via nuclear war (the irony of this second posit is not lost on me).

    "Two steps forward and one step back is still progress"
    I agree it isn't impossible.

    Right now the trend doesn't look good. It's already going to have a cost somewhere that is already set in motion.

    Population boom is a funky thing because it's geometric if it isn't checked. We're probably due for a couple more billion people in maybe the next 50 years if things don't change - this is already set in motion mathematically.

    We can avert crisis but we will have to see it in time and take it seriously.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    i always hear talk about the degradation of the human race, the increased levels of pain and suffering, the disconnection of mind from body, that we're facing certain doom in the coming century.... i'm sure one could go on forever recanting the ways we are losing ourselves.


    i cannot help but feel those that take this stance are severely undermining human history. comments that particularly irk me are ones that speak of the future with mankind out of the picture.

    it seems so naive... maybe i am the naive one?




    i realize the subject is likely well beyond the scope of what can be done in this thread, but what do you think?
    You mean that it is a self-fufilling prophecy or paradoxical thinking?

  9. #19
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    Also I forgot to mention another side effect of population spikes.

    If you have a spike followed by a sudden decline in reproduction, eventually you end up with a bunch of old people but few young people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I agree it isn't impossible.

    Right now the trend doesn't look good. It's already going to have a cost somewhere that is already set in motion.

    Population boom is a funky thing because it's geometric if it isn't checked. We're probably due for a couple more billion people in maybe the next 50 years if things don't change - this is already set in motion mathematically.

    We can avert crisis but we will have to see it in time and take it seriously.

    Yes, likely there is nothing to be done (ethically) about the population growth we will experience in the coming century, but I envision a society in which 30 billion plus are able to be sustained. It will take time, it will take lessons learned, and it will be incredibly complex, but it will be done, I can almost promise.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You mean that it is a self-fufilling prophecy or paradoxical thinking?

    Oh Lark, you never expose your thoughts well enough for me to understand what you're getting at, lol. The shit you say's like ten layers deep and all I've got is a spade.

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