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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    What about taking religion out of the equation altogether?

    I'm a Roman Catholic, although my stance on the topic of abandoning the traditionally and sound social institution of marriage doesnt actually have anything to do with any religious tradition or scriptures, hell, if I'm honest I think that RCC strictures have inadvertantly made the church a homosexual institution in a lot of contexts, I still wonder about the amount of reported homosexual behaviour among the hierarchy in Rome and stories about soliciting homosexual prostitutes in the Italian press.

    My objections to the politicalisation of homosexuals, including the whole "marriage" thing, is based on a lot of insights from sociology, psychology and politics, I consider my religion a matter of private conscience and always have, I dont expect anyone to try and live the life I try to lead or obey the strictures I do who is not a member of my church or shares that consciously arrived at wish.

    Its gotten to such a pitch now that when I read any posts about it I just think, not this shit again, seriously has that topic not jumped the shark? And really and truly I wonder when that's going to happen, I know that things are different in the US were there's sharp polarisation and some people strongly define themselves by that polarisation, honestly they'd be lost without their opposing and opposite numbers who they'll publically say they wish would go live elsewhere or disappear or conform to their thinking.

    Maybe if a couple of these boycotts and similarly vicious and bullying behaviour of people who cant conscientiously assent to popular opinion really are successful the tables will turn, we'll see. I used to think that it was worth while trying to get people to consider what the hell is going on here and the likely outcome if they were successful, now I just think its reached a point were you try and prepare for the shitty aftermath and accept that stupid crowds will do their thing.
    Yes, I know there are people who are opposed to gay marriage as an insitutution who are agnostic or atheist, and there are Christians who see homosexuality as a negligible smaller offense listed in the Old Testament, so are not focused on that issue at all in connection to their religion, so it's actually intelligent of you to raise this point; I am actually suprised that many political conservatives who are also socially conservative are not even religious but see moral relativity as an offense to science, common sense, societal structure, what have you: I've actually seen it argued from different angles when I frequent more conservative web sites (I frequent one that is much more socially conservative than this one, but in a more European definition of conservatism, or the old-fashioned American conservatism as opposed to the new American version).

  2. #62
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    Yes, I know there are people who are opposed to gay marriage as an insitutution who are agnostic or atheist, and there are Christians who see homosexuality as a negligible smaller offense listed in the Old Testament, so are not focused on that issue at all in connection to their religion, so it's actually intelligent of you to raise this point; I am actually suprised that many political conservatives who are also socially conservative are not even religious but see moral relativity as an offense to science, common sense, societal structure, what have you: I've actually seen it argued from different angles when I frequent more conservative web sites (I frequent one that is much more socially conservative than this one, but in a more European definition of conservatism, or the old-fashioned American conservatism as opposed to the new American version).
    I think that religious outlets are needed by humankind, although I think religion mixes badly with politics.

    I've only ever very begrudgingly accepted the label of cultural conservative, a sure as hell would not accept others because much of what has been conservatism from its inception just strikes me as a rationalisation of privilege, defence of avarice and anything but the perrenial philosophy it claims to be.

    However, in many ways, without the conservative responses to the radicalism of liberal revolutions there wouldnt be any sociology, while they are not 100% correct, I dont think anyone is, they are more often than not persuasive and logical whereas others are not, when you remove the emoting and outrage and think for a bit. I definitely think that Baghot's reflective conservatism, giving due consideration to a proper balance between tradition and innovation and thinking of the rights not just of the present but future generations who've not experienced the past as the present has been privileged to do so makes sense.

    Politics is business for a lot rich greedy people, its kind of why in the UK a lot of the politicians left and right have in a very sneering and scoffing manner publically expressed assent to, well, pretty much anything, anything at all, including homosexual "marriages", because anything besides avoiding tax rises doesnt matter to them or their small core constituency of uber richies. It shouldnt gladen anyone that there appears to be assent to such things because its just more evidence that politicians really dont care and will follow any apparent whim or fancy that'll assure them more time in office to collect their salary.

  3. #63
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    I never suggested that all Christians were douchebags. There are many Christians who are quite alright with gay marriage.
    What doctrine do they follow? Apparently not the Bible?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    What doctrine do they follow? Apparently not the Bible?
    My best guess it that their doctrine would be that we all have free will and they aren't going to judge what other people choose to do, they just won't do it themselves.

    I mean alcohol is legal and if you are a Southern Baptist or a Mormon who believes in being a tee totaler, does that mean you're going to go around lobbying for the revivial of prohibition?

    I see it as a similar point.

  5. #65
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    The guy has guts, that is all I can say about him.

    If you use free speech, be prepared to be criticized with free speech, whether it is political, moral, religious, or social.

    If you, as a CEO of a business, spout stuff, I expect it to be criticize just as what I spout, I expect myself to be criticized. Doesn't matter if you are a mayor, CEO, POTUS, or regular ole' you and me.

    This guy is a figurehead of his corporation, and as such, he and his corporation should face criticism just as ALEC, as a group, has faced criticism.

    But who knows, CFA could technically be using negative attention for more customers. I mean, hey, free advertisement.

  6. #66
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmotini View Post
    My best guess it that their doctrine would be that we all have free will and they aren't going to judge what other people choose to do, they just won't do it themselves.

    I mean alcohol is legal and if you are a Southern Baptist or a Mormon who believes in being a tee totaler, does that mean you're going to go around lobbying for the revivial of prohibition?

    I see it as a similar point.
    Tinker mentioned that these Christians were "quite alright with gay marriage". To me that translates as a bit more than just being tolerant of other people's choices. Christ hated sin, so therefore Christians should hate sin also (mind you I'm not talking about the sinner, just the sin itself).

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I definitely think that Baghot's reflective conservatism, giving due consideration to a proper balance between tradition and innovation and thinking of the rights not just of the present but future generations who've not experienced the past as the present has been privileged to do so makes sense.
    I agree with this.

    Politics is business for a lot rich greedy people, its kind of why in the UK a lot of the politicians left and right have in a very sneering and scoffing manner publically expressed assent to, well, pretty much anything, anything at all, including homosexual "marriages", because anything besides avoiding tax rises doesnt matter to them or their small core constituency of uber richies. It shouldnt gladen anyone that there appears to be assent to such things because its just more evidence that politicians really dont care and will follow any apparent whim or fancy that'll assure them more time in office to collect their salary.
    Okay well what I've figured out, separate from a religious standpoint, is that the family really is the cornerstone of society. Cohesive, long-term relationships, forgiveness, helping one another...all of those things are learned within the context of family. Marriage is the legal (and spiritual) manifestation of that in most societies, because it's a public vow to uphold this cornerstone, comprehending how influential it is on the society as a whole (and if anyone doubts this, just look at all of the lack of respect both genders seem to have for one another now and the violence amongst young people and the general isolation, cynicism, loneliness, depression and anxiety manifesting in Western society at large).

    I guess from this standpoint, people see heterosexual marriage as the sacred foundation that truly manifests this. However, my question is, how is it that homosexual people could not also have such stability in their personal lives and/or communities, and how can this make the break-down of the family unit worse, from a logical stand-point?

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It is no surprise that they do not support gay marriage. so why is everyone having a hissy fit over it JUST now?
    Because their president Dan Cathy did a recent interview and talked about it. The publicity was invited; it didn't fall out of the sky.

    Interview article here.

    Interestingly enough, his words below:
    "We don't claim to be a Christian business," Cathy told the Biblical Recorder in a recent visit to North Carolina. He attended a business leadership conference many years ago where he heard Christian businessman Fred Roach say, "There is no such thing as a Christian business."

    "That got my attention," Cathy said. Roach went on to say, "Christ never died for a corporation. He died for you and me."

    "In that spirit ... [Christianity] is about a personal relationship. Companies are not lost or saved, but certainly individuals are," Cathy added.

    "But as an organization we can operate on biblical principles. So that is what we claim to be. [We are] based on biblical principles, asking God and pleading with God to give us wisdom on decisions we make about people and the programs and partnerships we have. And He has blessed us."
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  9. #69
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    So you're saying a Wiccan new-age store shouldn't mix religion and business? Christian bookstores shouldn't actually be Christian? Its perfectly okay to mix business and religion--churches do it all the time.. churches have to be run a bit like a business if they want to do all the community outreach programs and things that they do to give to their communities and attendees. Mixing religion with politics is a bit of a gray area, and laws and religion are some dirty waters.. but if I were to open a business, I'd be sure my religious morals and values were intertwined into it..

    Chik-Fil-A never said they'd refuse service to Gays, or anything like that.. They just said what EVERY fundamental Christian tends to say. That they disagree with same-sex marriage. They have a right to disagree with it, and show support to those in their community who do.

    Getting backlash for being openly Christian seems to be just the intolerance and judgment that, surprise, same-sex marriage supporters complain about so much. They'll get their way, society and the times will see to that. I don't see the need to attack and lash out at Christians in the process. Two wrongs don't make a right.
    They can mix religion and business all the want. I especially don't care because I don't see anything "Christian" about a chicken sandwich. It's food and it isn't inherently religious, so the source of it is irrelevant -

    Or it should be irrelevant. When they get into politics by donating money to specific organizations, it's not just a chicken sandwich anymore.

    I don't give a crap what someone's religion is. There could be an atheist selling Jesus fish for all I care. But if they turn around and fund anti Christian organizations with their money in a political move, I'm still going to have a problem with it.

    Edit: basically if their religious rights were threatened, I would support them because I believe in choice. Which is unfortunate because they are essentially damning potential allies. Who will run to their aid when they are the ones persecuted?

  10. #70
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Also:

    http://equalitymatters.org/factcheck/201111010001

    Tell me again what they didn't do with their money?

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