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  1. #291
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    This whole thing has just become a 1st amendment squashing shit storm. He lost his job for expressing his opinion? Chick-fil-a is getting scorched for the same thing.

  2. #292
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Since when does the first amendment protect people from the social consequences of their free speech? The constitution is a legal document. It was written as a set of protections for the people from the government. It was never intended to shield people from criticism or other social consequences, just legal ones.

  3. #293
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Since when does the first amendment protect people from the social consequences of their free speech? The constitution is a legal document. It was written as a set of protections for the people from the government. It was never intended to shield people from criticism or other social consequences, just legal ones.
    This. It's why I like it when people don't manipulate their words and are blunt and honest about what they are and what they represent. If they're bigots, I want to know about it so that I can react accordingly.. If the dude had never said anything, people would have just gone on their cheery merry little lives never knowing what this dude they were giving their money to thought. Sure, the donation thing has been going on, but how many people REALLY knew about that before this shitstorm came along? I sure didn't. I probably never would have either--I don't go looking for what CFA is doing while I'm bored at work. I don't really actively look for things to upset me. I just figure they'll show up on their own.
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  4. #294
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    This whole thing has just become a 1st amendment squashing shit storm. He lost his job for expressing his opinion? Chick-fil-a is getting scorched for the same thing.
    There's no state actor here (as far as we know). If the mayor or other governmental official were responsible for his firing or indicated they would ban him from the city/state/fiefdom based on his opinion, then there'd be a parallel first amendment implication.
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  5. #295
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Since when does the first amendment protect people from the social consequences of their free speech? The constitution is a legal document. It was written as a set of protections for the people from the government. It was never intended to shield people from criticism or other social consequences, just legal ones.
    It becomes legal when it's used as a basis for firing someone from their job.

  6. #296
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    It becomes legal when it's used as a basis for firing someone from their job.
    Do you really think that in the US if you publicly say "My employer sucks," that your employer can't fire you as a result? Even when it comes to political speech, there are few protections. Here's a Business Week article talking about the issue: Where Free Speech Goes to Die: The Workplace.

  7. #297
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seymour View Post
    Do you really think that in the US if you publicly say "My employer sucks," that your employer can't fire you as a result? Even when it comes to political speech, there are few protections. Here's a Business Week article talking about the issue: Where Free Speech Goes to Die: The Workplace.
    He didn't say his employer sucks though. I understand the technicalities of how the 1st works, but you think it'd be honored more liberally in light of the principle behind it.

  8. #298
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    He didn't say his employer sucks though. I understand the technicalities of how the 1st works, but you think it'd be honored more liberally in light of the principle behind it.
    I wasn't saying he did (although I should have been clearer). It's just as an example of the kind of thing you can be fired for... including expressing a political opinion. There really are very few protections. Expecting businesses to behave otherwise in the absence of regulation or public outcry seems a little unrealistic.

  9. #299
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Finally watched it. Wow. Not even sure what to say... I feel bad for "Rachel" (that was kind of tacky, to use her personal name after victimizing her like that). Then again, if people want to polarize this (and not just Cathy, and not just some gay rights groups, but now Huckabee and others who organized the Aug 1 event, etc.), then what do you expect? People are going to chime in. It's just going to be ugly; these are the "front lines" of the culture war.
    People chime in, but somehow lots of people manage to disagree with others without sinking to his low. Disagreement only need be as ugly as people allow their self-righteousness to justify ugly behavior. I wouldn't be surprised if this asshole buys products from Apple, which is famous for atrocious labor violations (and related deaths). I can only imagine his outrage if someone accosted and victimized him in similar fashion for daring to use the products of such violations and giving money to the corporation. And I doubt he is sauntering into any of Apple's genius bars to rant at and berate the technicians there. Does he (or his alleged wife) take pains never to patronize big box stores accused of discrimination (and berate the cashiers there)? It's this classic, uncritical self-righteousness by which he sets himself up as a faultless, morally authority over this woman he knows next to nothing that is particularly galling. He has more in common with nutty Fred Phelps than he will ever realize. One can only hope that tenor does not become the norm, "culture war" or not.

    I have mixed feelings about that. But I guess that's his fault for videotaping and posting; he could have probably pulled off what he did, if he hadn't made a spectacle of it.
    Not sure how he would have showcased his self-congratulatory moral heroism otherwise.
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  10. #300
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I think it's kind of stupid for him to get fired for something he did off-work property and time (i think), but unfortunately I guess it could be considered as making his company look bad as I think he was the CFO.

    On a tangent, government stuff gets really tricky. I work for a federal agency and there are laws in place that specifically forbid me from certain types of political speech during an election season. (I think they are called the Hatch Laws.) I can be disciplined and even fired from my job if I violate any of those laws regardless of whether I'm on the agency clock at the time, which restrict how I can express my political views.

    @INA: Well, I agree with your thoughts there too. It's simply that I considered him unnecessarily rude/mean to the worker, which I think should bring him under criticism socially but seems kind of crazy that you can be fired over it. Yet, i guess that kind of reprimand has occurred for years and years, when someone makes a social scene and thus brings bad press resulting in a termination of employment so that the company no longer has a connection to the person in question.
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