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  1. #191
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  2. #192
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    I don't want people telling me what to eat either because I'm able to make good choices. Nor do I want a CEO of a restaurant chain telling me about his religious beliefs and implying that I should believe that same, or that his position should make me or anyone give his advice extra weight.
    And your friend who was told to eat donuts for his health? He needs a different doctor. That's terrible advice. Does the doctor moonlight as a mortician?
    And this is the problem here. He stated his religious beliefs. He's perfectly entitled to that. He isn't IMPLYING you to believe them. Why is it everytime someone says anything religious people assume they're being preached to? I don't preach at anyone when I tell them "Bless you." I don't preach at people when I tell them "Don't worry, life has a plan." It isn't telling you to believe what I believe.. They are opinions and statements. Where in any of his statements did he say he hoped others would also feel the same way? Or that others should feel the same way?

    This is how religious persecution starts. Someone says, "That dude is trying to MAKE me and my kids believe there's a different type of God out there that thinks this way!" When someone says "My God says that we believe this, and I am very adamant about that." You don't realize that the train of thought is pushing immediately to assuming that Christianity is some radical contagious disease so that if it is spoken about they MUST be trying to convert others against their will.

    There are plenty of Christian establishments and churches that do that already without putting strawmen on the table. Judge assholes for being assholes, not for being christian.

    And my friend got a good diagnosis. I'm not throwing every detail out there because I don't find it necessary, my point is merely that government getting into people's personal lives isn't a good idea. I deal with it on a daily basis--and see things like women being punished for having a baby, and couples in love being court martialed because someone got burned by one of them back in the day and now they're in a position of authority. It isn't a pretty thing to have your personal life dictated by the government.
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  3. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    And this is the problem here. He stated his religious beliefs. He's perfectly entitled to that. He isn't IMPLYING you to believe them. Why is it everytime someone says anything religious people assume they're being preached to? I don't preach at anyone when I tell them "Bless you." I don't preach at people when I tell them "Don't worry, life has a plan." It isn't telling you to believe what I believe.. They are opinions and statements. Where in any of his statements did he say he hoped others would also feel the same way? Or that others should feel the same way?
    Probably this: "I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage'. I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about."

    Again, it isn't just that someone has an opinion, but that the company gives money to anti-gay organizations. The comments just drew attention to their activities. They are allowed to do that and he's allowed to state his religious beliefs. However, the 1st Amendment doesn't create a criticism-free zone for such views and activities. Others are allowed to state their opinion and organize their activities as well.

  4. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Probably this: "I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage'. I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about."

    Yeah. I've stated this before in this thread. It's very different than just saying, "Well, according to my religious values, I just don't believe same-sex marriage is right, so we're going to disagree."

    This is "vilification" speech, and the same kinds of comments were underlying the Red Scare of the 50's, prevent atheists from ever holding high office in this country, etc. If you disagree with the guy on this issue, he is not just saying he disagrees with you, but that you are anti-God, arrogant, prideful, rebellious against God and spiritual authority, etc. He's basically paraphrasing slam-passages out of the Bible (like Romans 1) to blanket-slur the moral fiber of anyone who disagrees with him. Those kinds of attitudes are at the core of any overt act of prejudice and violence in this country and contribute directly to them when they occur.

    It's the same attitude that, when a Matthew Shepherd is killed, would shrug and say deep in one's heart, "Well, that's too bad... but I guess he deserved it for being gay. After all, he was rebelling against God and needed to be brought back in line, it's his own fault." Or "that atheist got fired unfairly, but she's an atheist, so it's her own damned fault and maybe this will be a wake-up call for her."

    Does that clarify anything for you, @kyuuei? It's not that he's espousing his values, that's not something to be threatened by, it's what the tone and attitude behind those values is conveying that is the problem and that is raising people's hackles.

    Anyway, honestly, you only say that kind of crap when you're trying to call someone out. Is it any wonder quite a large number of people are responding to such an obvious call-out?
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  5. #195
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Probably this: "I think we are inviting God's judgment on our nation when we shake our fist at Him and say, 'We know better than you as to what constitutes a marriage'. I pray God's mercy on our generation that has such a prideful, arrogant attitude to think that we have the audacity to define what marriage is about."

    Again, it isn't just that someone has an opinion, but that the company gives money to anti-gay organizations. The comments just drew attention to their activities. They are allowed to do that and he's allowed to state his religious beliefs. However, the 1st Amendment doesn't create a criticism-free zone for such views and activities. Others are allowed to state their opinion and organize their activities as well.
    The organizations he donates to CAN be argued that anti-gay practices are not the only thing they do.. I don't doubt that the organizations focus on that, or that he's extreme in the way he's talking.. but he literally said nothing about hating gays. He literally says nothing about hating anyone. Infact, his speech is clearly focused only on the same-sex-MARRIAGE part of it all. Which, to me, is a LOT better than many of the comments I hear on a daily basis about homosexuals. THat he's famous means he has a bit of responsibility, and it is clear he's attempt to tip-toe around a bit after the fact without backing down from his original statement.

    I don't doubt the dude's an asshole for being that blunt about it. But being an asshole isn't really enough. There's girls in Russia getting arrested for saying they dislike their leaders. I'll take an asshole being an obvious bigot over that anytime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Yeah. I've stated this before in this thread. It's very different than just saying, "Well, according to my religious values, I just don't believe same-sex marriage is right, so we're going to disagree."

    This is "vilification" speech, and the same kinds of comments were underlying the Red Scare of the 50's, prevent atheists from ever holding high office in this country, etc. If you disagree with the guy on this issue, he is not just saying he disagrees with you, but that you are anti-God, arrogant, prideful, rebellious against God and spiritual authority, etc. He's basically paraphrasing slam-passages out of the Bible (like Romans 1) to blanket-slur the moral fiber of anyone who disagrees with him. Those kinds of attitudes are at the core of any overt act of prejudice and violence in this country and contribute directly to them when they occur.

    It's the same attitude that, when a Matthew Shepherd is killed, would shrug and say deep in one's heart, "Well, that's too bad... but I guess he deserved it for being gay. After all, he was rebelling against God and needed to be brought back in line, it's his own fault." Or "that atheist got fired unfairly, but she's an atheist, so it's her own damned fault and maybe this will be a wake-up call for her."

    Does that clarify anything for you, @kyuuei? It's not that he's espousing his values, that's not something to be threatened by, it's what the tone and attitude behind those values is conveying that is the problem and that is raising people's hackles.

    Anyway, honestly, you only say that kind of crap when you're trying to call someone out. Is it any wonder quite a large number of people are responding to such an obvious call-out?
    I really dislike that tone though. It seems like that's what we always have to do now-a-days.. tip toe, and call apples "Imperfect roundish fruits with white meat and multi-colored skin with tiny seeds at the core." I don't really care if someone sounds like an asshole with a politically correct tone or if they just present themselves that way--I'd find the statement wrong and offensive either way. The viewpoint doesn't change just because the words are different. "I'm against same-sex-marriage because my God says man and woman are a marriage and that is that." Great. You're God isn't the only one out there in people's hearts.

    And it is unfortunate that people take those kind of attitudes.. But again. I don't see him trying to prevent gays from going to his restaurant (Outside of this statement itself... Though if I were gay and married, I'd just frequent the places more out of principle.) nor is he taking any direct actions or statements against homosexuals in any way. He's spoken, like a douche, on his viewpoint on marriage. Thats really all I hear. And he didn't single out gays either. He pretty much condemned anyone who believes in same-sex-marriage being a good thing. That includes quite a few Christians and straight people in the process.

    But I don't think any of that warrants a city banning a restaurant from opening before the people even have a chance to boycott it and shut it down themselves.
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  6. #196
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The organizations he donates to CAN be argued that anti-gay practices are not the only thing they do.. I don't doubt that the organizations focus on that, or that he's extreme in the way he's talking.. but he literally said nothing about hating gays. He literally says nothing about hating anyone. Infact, his speech is clearly focused only on the same-sex-MARRIAGE part of it all. Which, to me, is a LOT better than many of the comments I hear on a daily basis about homosexuals. THat he's famous means he has a bit of responsibility, and it is clear he's attempt to tip-toe around a bit after the fact without backing down from his original statement.
    Yes, and all the "states rights" people from the south in the '60s just loved black people and couldn't wait for their daughters to marry one. They just had a legalistic opinion on the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution is all!

    I'm a white male raised in a Republican and Christian family. I recognize code-speak.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    But I don't think any of that warrants a city banning a restaurant from opening
    That can't happen anyway, it's illegal.

  8. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    I really dislike that tone though. It seems like that's what we always have to do now-a-days.. tip toe, and call apples "Imperfect roundish fruits with white meat and multi-colored skin with tiny seeds at the core." I don't really care if someone sounds like an asshole with a politically correct tone or if they just present themselves that way--I'd find the statement wrong and offensive either way. The viewpoint doesn't change just because the words are different. "I'm against same-sex-marriage because my God says man and woman are a marriage and that is that." Great. You're God isn't the only one out there in people's hearts.
    I understand that. But again, we're taking about attitudes and how we convey ideas.

    For example, if I think your idea was stupid, I could say it in a bunch of ways:
    - I think your idea was wrong, and here's why.
    - I think your idea was stupid.
    - I think YOU are stupid.
    - I think YOU are stupid -- how fucking stupid do you have to be before you get a fucking clue, asshole?!!

    In one sense, these are all conveying the same information ("I think what you said is stupid"). In another sense, the answers become more disdainful as they progress downwards, and if you had to guess, the guy who answers with the first can probably be depended on to be fair regardless of his feelings, and the guy who answers the last is kind of scary because the attitude conveyed can lead to worse things being said or done... or trigger someone without scruples to lash out instead.

    And it is unfortunate that people take those kind of attitudes.. But again. I don't see him trying to prevent gays from going to his restaurant (Outside of this statement itself... Though if I were gay and married, I'd just frequent the places more out of principle.) nor is he taking any direct actions or statements against homosexuals in any way. He's spoken, like a douche, on his viewpoint on marriage. Thats really all I hear. And he didn't single out gays either. He pretty much condemned anyone who believes in same-sex-marriage being a good thing. That includes quite a few Christians and straight people in the process.
    I'm not sure why that is better. In fact, that's almost worse -- "you don't need to be gay, you can even be a God-fearing Christian, and because you disagree with me, you're as bad as those god-defying, arrogant, irrational queers."
    But I don't think any of that warrants a city banning a restaurant from opening before the people even have a chance to boycott it and shut it down themselves.
    I agree. That is not what our country is supposed to be about.
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  9. #199
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Yes, and all the "states rights" people from the south in the '60s just loved black people and couldn't wait for their daughters to marry one. They just had a legalistic opinion on the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution is all!

    I'm a white male raised in a Republican and Christian family. I recognize code-speak.
    I'm just saying that the gay-hate everyone is assuming is too narrow-minded. The guy's an idiot and an asshole, but he hasn't openly hated gays at all. He took it much broader--he disdains same-sex marriage and thinks we're all pompous assholes for supporting it. But he didn't do anything illegal, not to the point of warranting cities to ban his restaurants.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    That can't happen anyway, it's illegal.
    I had suspected it was, but the talk on the news was cities banning the restaurant, which is what prompted the discussion. I think its important to pick-and-choose battles politically.. The CFA occurances are too meager to really be a winning ground, and they're taking it too far in the other direction with talk of banning CFA's. I think it was a poorly fought battle.

    I admire that the dude is blunt and honest. I know what he is honest about is horrid, and shows a lot of hate.. but I want to know my enemies. I hate it when people tip toe around and pretend to have one face when you know clear-as-day with everything but hard evidence that it's a mask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I understand that. But again, we're taking about attitudes and how we convey ideas.

    For example, if I think your idea was stupid, I could say it in a bunch of ways:
    - I think your idea was wrong, and here's why.
    - I think your idea was stupid.
    - I think YOU are stupid.
    - I think YOU are stupid -- how fucking stupid do you have to be before you get a fucking clue, asshole?!!

    In one sense, these are all conveying the same information ("I think what you said is stupid"). In another sense, the answers become more disdainful as they progress downwards, and if you had to guess, the guy who answers with the first can probably be depended on to be fair regardless of his feelings, and the guy who answers the last is kind of scary because the attitude conveyed can lead to worse things being said or done... or trigger someone without scruples to lash out instead.


    I'm not sure why that is better. In fact, that's almost worse -- "you don't need to be gay, you can even be a God-fearing Christian, and because you disagree with me, you're as bad as those god-defying, arrogant, irrational queers."

    I agree. That is not what our country is supposed to be about.
    I see what you're saying with the tone thing.. but in this situation, it doesn't matter how you say it. The sentiments behind not supporting same-sex marriage come down to the same things, no matter how it's said. So I really don't mind whichever way they use it--the principles are all there. They can yell and scream and say insults all they want--the people who are saying it nicely feel the same way inside.

    And I don't find it worse at all. Homosexuals have enough hate funneled directly to them as it is, they don't need more focus on them than there already is. I'm okay with straight supporters taking some of the burden. The comments affecting more people mean more people to do something about it with things like boycotting and public outrage.

    But I think it should stop there. At public outrage.
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  10. #200
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    Yes, and all the "states rights" people from the south in the '60s just loved black people and couldn't wait for their daughters to marry one. They just had a legalistic opinion on the interpretation of the U.S. Constitution is all!

    I'm a white male raised in a Republican and Christian family. I recognize code-speak.
    I'm just saying that the gay-hate everyone is assuming is too narrow-minded. The guy's an idiot and an asshole, but he hasn't openly hated gays at all. He took it much broader--he disdains same-sex marriage and thinks we're all pompous assholes for supporting it. But he didn't do anything illegal, not to the point of warranting cities to ban his restaurants.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacGuffin View Post
    That can't happen anyway, it's illegal.
    I had suspected it was, but the talk on the news was cities banning the restaurant, which is what prompted the discussion. I think its important to pick-and-choose battles politically.. The CFA occurances are too meager to really be a winning ground, and they're taking it too far in the other direction with talk of banning CFA's. I think it was a poorly fought battle.

    I admire that the dude is blunt and honest. I know what he is honest about is horrid, and shows a lot of hate.. but I want to know my enemies. I hate it when people tip toe around and pretend to have one face when you know clear-as-day with everything but hard evidence that it's a mask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I understand that. But again, we're taking about attitudes and how we convey ideas.

    For example, if I think your idea was stupid, I could say it in a bunch of ways:
    - I think your idea was wrong, and here's why.
    - I think your idea was stupid.
    - I think YOU are stupid.
    - I think YOU are stupid -- how fucking stupid do you have to be before you get a fucking clue, asshole?!!

    In one sense, these are all conveying the same information ("I think what you said is stupid"). In another sense, the answers become more disdainful as they progress downwards, and if you had to guess, the guy who answers with the first can probably be depended on to be fair regardless of his feelings, and the guy who answers the last is kind of scary because the attitude conveyed can lead to worse things being said or done... or trigger someone without scruples to lash out instead.


    I'm not sure why that is better. In fact, that's almost worse -- "you don't need to be gay, you can even be a God-fearing Christian, and because you disagree with me, you're as bad as those god-defying, arrogant, irrational queers."

    I agree. That is not what our country is supposed to be about.
    I see what you're saying with the tone thing.. but in this situation, it doesn't matter how you say it. The sentiments behind not supporting same-sex marriage come down to the same things, no matter how it's said. So I really don't mind whichever way they use it--the principles are all there. They can yell and scream and say insults all they want--the people who are saying it nicely feel the same way inside.

    And I don't find it worse at all. Homosexuals have enough hate funneled directly to them as it is, they don't need more focus on them than there already is. I'm okay with straight supporters taking some of the burden. The comments affecting more people mean more people to do something about it with things like boycotting and public outrage.

    But I think it should stop there. At public outrage.
    Kantgirl: Just say "I'm feminine and I'll punch anyone who says otherwise!"
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