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  1. #41
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Unless there is something morally wrong with the product or service itself boycotting is just stupid no matter who does it.

    There are some faults with the message below, but I agree with the basic sentiment.

    Take the weakest thing in you
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  2. #42
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Btw, Chick-fil-a still does business with Coca-cola despite it being a 100% pro-homosexual corporation. This is probably because Cathy is implementing the Christian idea of not objecting to a product because the product comes from an immoral source. This principle was demonstrated when Paul told the Corinthians they could eat meat that was sacrificed to idols.

    1 Corinthians 10:25-27
    25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience.
    26 For "the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness thereof."
    27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #43
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Btw, Chick-fil-a still does business with Coca-cola despite it being a 100% pro-homosexual corporation. This is probably because Cathy is implementing the Christian idea of not objecting to a product because the product comes from an immoral source. This principle was demonstrated when Paul told the Corinthians they could eat meat that was sacrificed to idols.
    There are many conservative Christians who would disagree with that decision, when they view it as contributing their money to immoral practices. Lord knows I heard my share of why people couldn't buy this or that product because of the owning company's "immoral connections/policies" when I was inhabiting a pew regularly.

    I might be a skeptic, but I'm thinking it's more like you don't skip the chance to make a deal with Coke whenever you're a fast-food retailer.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #44
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I saw an interesting article earlier on FaceBook (don't have the URL right now) about someone who despises Chick-Fil-A, yet says it is a terrible precedent to run a business out of town through legal channels over a free speech issue and that citizens boycotting the establishment is the "proper way" to do things.

    What do you guys think?
    This is no worse than what they're doing to gay marriage. Citizens boycotting it if they dislike it should be the proper course of action, if you don't want to marry the same sex or your religion thinks it's sinful, then don't do it!

    But instead, politicians are deciding what the rights, yes, RIGHTS are of a group of millions of people. What these people do in their daily lives does not affect these politicians, yet they are deciding what their rights are.

    People who oppose gay marriage deserve to be treated the same way that they treat the people that they oppress- like dirt. If a business openly oppresses a group of people like this, then you should expect opposition such as this. If a business were openly racist then you would get results very similar to what's happening here, for instance.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  5. #45
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    From the Daily Beast:

    Emanuel And Menino: Liberal Bullies

    I haven't commented on the Chik-Fil-A issue because, well I was too busy enjoying Mitt in London. Which is another reason to celebrate the existence of Glenn Greenwald. Here's a classic Greenwald post - full of OCD updates, relentlessly researched, thoroughly linked, addressing every single counter-argument. Let me just add one word: amen.

    Intimidating a business because its chairman expresses his perfectly legitimate - if to me, misguided - views, should have absolutely nothing to do with a civil rights movement. Civil rights movements are about expanding freedom, including for those with whom we disagree. The impulse by some well-meaning heterosexual allies to ban or shut down or somehow use the power of the state to police thought in this way is simply anathema to what we ought to stand for. There is no contradiction between marriage equality and a robust defense of the rights of those who oppose marriage equality - including maximal religious freedom and maximal free speech.In fact, it is vital that we eschew such tactics, as they distract from a positive argument that has been solidly winning converts for two decades.

    The point is that we all have to live together even while we passionately disagree. That toleration is the challenge of our time, and it goes both ways.
    If we gays now try to suppress others' rights, we have become nothing less than what we have opposed for so long. And there's a worrying tendency - more pronounced on the right than left, but still potent on the far left - not simply to oppose the arguments of the other side in a cultural debate, but to delegitimize them as people of equal standing. But calling a bunch of good-faith people bigots and leveraging government power against them is, in my mind, no morally different than calling a bunch of people perverts and leveraging government power against them.

    No hate crimes laws; no restriction of the free speech of our opponents; no infringement on religious freedom; no delegitimization of the perfectly legitimate (if, to my mind, deeply flawed) argument that civil marriage be reserved exclusively for heterosexuals. Just equality. And freedom. If Emanuel and Menino want to know how a straight ally acts, look at Jeff Bezos. You can support civil rights by enlarging speech, not restricting it.

  6. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Unless there is something morally wrong with the product or service itself boycotting is just stupid no matter who does it.

    There are some faults with the message below, but I agree with the basic sentiment.

    This is pretty much exactly what I meant when I said I would still eat at Chick-Fil-A even though I support gay marriage.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  7. #47
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Is it just exercising free speech (express that restaurant is unwelcome, boycott), or does it go further?

    CHICAGO — A Chicago alderman, angered by the president of Chick-fil-A’s comments that he is against gay marriage, said he will block the company from building a restaurant in his ward.

    Chick-fil-A has obtained a zoning permit for the restaurant but needs approval from the City Council to divide the land, Moreno said. And in a city where the City Council rarely go against the wishes of the alderman, Chick-fil-A needs Moreno’s help.

    Moreno said holding up construction would be as simple as refusing to introduce an ordinance to subdivide the land where Chick-fil-A wants to build.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by INA View Post
    Is it just exercising free speech (express that restaurant is unwelcome, boycott), or does it go further?
    In general, I feel like as long as the person does everything "right" as per the law, then the city has no reason to deny the permit.

    In other situations, schools are required to allow groups to meet without prejudice against the type of group. And when I got my name change a few years ago, the judge might have disagreed with my reasons for doing it, but legally I had conformed to all aspects of the process, so he had to grant it. I think it's dangerous to have people in legal power start throwing their weight around to constrict and restrict other people's legal rights out of some sense of personal values.

    The only thing that is a gray area is the concept of "hate speech." Typically people have drawn lines with extremists like white-supremacy groups and the like. Hate groups aren't nearly as tolerated, and there are laws in the books about some groups like that.

    Is Chick-Fil-A a "hate group?" That's a pretty severe stretch to say that, despite the fact they've funded groups that donate money to Exodus and Focus on the Family and the Family Research Council and the Marriage & Family Foundation. I think some of the funds were pretty negligible, the Marriage & Family Foundation received the most by far. There are also supposedly donations that have ended up being attached some way to the "Kill the Gays" legislation that was introduced in Uganda this year again. Yes, the donations definitely support people who are fighting the acceptance of same-sex marriage; that much can be said; but hate group?

    Which leads me to say I think Cathy's remarks were arrogant (that he thought he could just say them without impact to anything) and stupid (in terms of impacting his brand negatively); his comments, which now Chick-Fil-A has been scrambling to try to defuse somehow, really gave the whole thing a hard shove out of the gray area of this discussion and expressed a personal loathing AKA hate for gay people. Maybe that's not Chick-Fil-A's stance in the formal sense, but it's the CEO's personal opinion and it's hard for people to differentiate the two.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  9. #49
    now! in shell form INA's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In general, I feel like as long as the person does everything "right" as per the law, then the city has no reason to deny the permit.

    In other situations, schools are required to allow groups to meet without prejudice against the type of group. And when I got my name change a few years ago, the judge might have disagreed with my reasons for doing it, but legally I had conformed to all aspects of the process, so he had to grant it. I think it's dangerous to have people in legal power start throwing their weight around to constrict and restrict other people's legal rights out of some sense of personal values.
    Sure. I wondered if the confidence with which the Alderman expressed that he would block the permit was empty pandering to the gay base. But this is Chicago, known for especially sleazy politics. Maybe he's accustomed to his bully pulpit.
    I find that sort of confidence cause for alarm, though few apparently care much about potential for abuse when it suits the current "right" opinion.
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  10. #50
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    In general, I feel like as long as the person does everything "right" as per the law, then the city has no reason to deny the permit.
    Agreed. I think using political position as a bully pulpit should be done very sparingly... this usage makes me a bit queasy. I think the CEO of Chik-Fil-A has done his company's brand harm, but he's free to express his personal opinion... even if it makes the company he manages of look bad to a sizable segment of the population.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Is Chick-Fil-A a "hate group?" That's a pretty severe stretch to say that, despite the fact they've funded groups that donate money to Exodus and Focus on the Family and the Family Research Council and the Marriage & Family Foundation. I think some of the funds were pretty negligible, the Marriage & Family Foundation received the most by far. There are also supposedly donations that have ended up being attached some way to the "Kill the Gays" legislation that was introduced in Uganda this year again. Yes, the donations definitely support people who are fighting the acceptance of same-sex marriage; that much can be said; but hate group?
    Chik-Fil-A does not qualify as a hate group... I think it's very difficult to argue otherwise. Family Research Council/Focus on the Family (which Chik-Fil-A funded with a small amount of money) did make the Southern Poverty Law Center's "hate group" list, but the Marriage & Family Foundation would not qualify.

    While I do feel organizations like Family Research Council and Exodus International do active harm to LGBT folks (especially youths), companies are free to donate money where they see fit. Consumers are free to respond accordingly. That's one reason political donation transparency is important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Which leads me to say I think Cathy's remarks were arrogant (that he thought he could just say them without impact to anything) and stupid (in terms of impacting his brand negatively); his comments, which now Chick-Fil-A has been scrambling to try to defuse somehow, really gave the whole thing a hard shove out of the gray area of this discussion and expressed a personal loathing AKA hate for gay people. Maybe that's not Chick-Fil-A's stance in the formal sense, but it's the CEO's personal opinion and it's hard for people to differentiate the two.
    Exactly. I'd rather Chik-Fil-A not be blocked from opening stores where they see fit (as long as they are law abiding), and let free speech and individual choice play out.

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