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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Read about the universe in general, and the first impression you should stumble upon is that it's a violent place. And we ourselves aren't a seperate part of it. We are the universe. Our very molecules were already off to a great start in "violence". We are borne from the stars. Stars that lost the upper hand in trillion year long wars against gravity, creating explosions that are 600 million times that of the Hiroshima bomb. And the elements reshaped.. and even spawned life. And after your species grew eyeballs and teeth, you hunted down and fed on those that didn't have the same advantages. And you continue this to this day. No matter how much you try to sterilize existence, violence is everywhere. Even if you outsource the job and get your violence packed fresh in a grocery store, and label it "bacon" and "eggs". Unless you're a Jainist monk or something. But even, you're probably screwing that up too.

    Not trying to be dramatic about this or anything, but my point.. I guess.. is you have to make some room for it, even if you don't want to. The only difference with people is a matter of scale.
    One might say the universe is violent and one can certainly say evolution is violent, but since the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries we have adopted liberal democracy which eshews violence in favour of the ballot box.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    One might say the universe is violent and one can certainly say evolution is violent, but since the Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries we have adopted liberal democracy which eshews violence in favour of the ballot box.
    Victor you are kidding me, there's no positive correlation between the changes you refer to as the enlightenment, which was essentially correspondence clubs of natural philosophers and scientific researchers, and universal sufferage, ie the ballot box.

    It took major struggles to institute universal mens sufferage rather than simply propertied sufferage, longer for womens sufferage, not to mention that slavery, apartheid and segregation had an impact upon it too and that limits endured in as apparently advanced nations such as the UK into the seventies when the one man, one vote campaign took place in Northern Ireland.

    Seriously man you're simple and bigotted attacks on religious people and traditionalists really do expose massive holes in your understanding or knowledge.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Victor you are kidding me, there's no positive correlation between the changes you refer to as the enlightenment, which was essentially correspondence clubs of natural philosophers and scientific researchers, and universal sufferage, ie the ballot box.

    It took major struggles to institute universal mens sufferage rather than simply propertied sufferage, longer for womens sufferage, not to mention that slavery, apartheid and segregation had an impact upon it too and that limits endured in as apparently advanced nations such as the UK into the seventies when the one man, one vote campaign took place in Northern Ireland.

    Seriously man you're simple and bigotted attacks on religious people and traditionalists really do expose massive holes in your understanding or knowledge.

    To a fair degree, though, you have to respect his position, for it is not completely false.

    Actually I think I lost sight of the conversation. I will keep the statement above posted, for reasons of integrity.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    To a fair degree, though, you have to respect his position, for it is not completely false.

    Actually I think I lost sight of the conversation. I will keep the statement above posted, for reasons of integrity.
    If consistency alone warranted respect then I would respect what Victor has to say but its actually now, you can be consistently wrong for instance, as Victor is.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    If consistency alone warranted respect then I would respect what Victor has to say but its actually now, you can be consistently wrong for instance, as Victor is.
    I respect my critics because they can and do point out where I am wrong.

    And indeed my critics hold me to our philosophy of 'power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

    And so my critics limit my power and so my tendency for corruption.

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