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  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    10 years is a long ass time.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm down for greater regulations for owning a semi-auto rifle, but this would effectively ban anyone under that age of 28 from owning such a weapon.
    If you look at the three reasons I outlined above that justify owning a semi-automatic rifle and a significant stockpile of munitions, I see no legitimate reason why one must constitutionally be able to do so between the ages of 18 and 28. Between the ages of 18 and 28, you can purchase other weapons. If you've proven yourself as a responsible gun owner during that time, and can pass a psychological evaluation saying you are fit to own such weapons at the end of said period, I have no problem with you being able to do so. In fact, if and when the alien invaders attack, I wish you the best of luck, and hope you will let me borrow/use one of them.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Exactly.

    If you look at the three reasons I outlined above that justify owning a semi-automatic rifle and a significant stockpile of munitions, I see no legitimate reason why one must constitutionally be able to do so between the ages of 18 and 28. Between the ages of 18 and 28, you can purchase other weapons. If you've proven yourself as a responsible gun owner during that time, and can pass a psychological evaluation saying you are fit to own such weapons, I have no problem with you being able to do so.
    To quote you:

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    In that same discussion with my buddy, I presented three reasons:

    1. Against the government.
    2. In case the government collapses, and one must protect oneself.
    3. In case a foreign army (human or alien) successfully invades the country.

    These may seem a bit paranoid and crazy, but they are legitimate reasons to want to develop a considerable stockpile of munitions.
    These things can happen when one is of any age.

    EDIT - more to the point, how frequently are these mass shooting committed with semi-auto rifles?

    Not to mention how infrequently they are used in crime.

    The overwhelming majority of semi-auto rifle owners just like to shoot targets.

    I'm not seeing what that ban achieves that could not be achieved with better screening, or how it could prevent someone younger from circumventing it with a private purchase etc..

  3. #73
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not answer questions about hypothetical situations that don't currently exist.
    That may be a prudent thing to say in a political interview; here it just seems as though you have something to hide. If it is really the hypothetical nature that bothers you, I can ask directly, too: Are you against gun bans for ideological or practical reasons?

  4. #74
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    Both.

    What am I trying to hide here buddy?

  5. #75
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Both.
    See, now your answer to the original question may shed some light on the ratio and relationship of the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    What am I trying to hide here buddy?
    The ideologist, perhaps. They are usually irrational.

  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    See, now your answer to the original question may shed some light on the ratio and relationship of the two.


    The ideologist, perhaps. They are usually irrational.
    Were there any follow up questions to that one or are you done?

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    These things can happen when one is of any age.
    Yes, including when you are 5 yrs old.

    So does that mean we should allow 5 yr olds to purchase semi-automatic rifles?

    The point is, your point doesn't actually detract from my point.

    My point is to allow the public to arm itself against such possible threats, if it feels it necessary to.

    But, at the same time, also making it difficult enough to do so that we can hopefully prevent people like James Holmes from getting their hands on them.

    I also think that people are generally wiser at 28 than 18, or 24, and, as that would be the youngest age at which one could get one, it's a reasonable limit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    EDIT - more to the point, how frequently are these mass shooting committed with semi-auto rifles?
    Columbine was, no?

    And this one.

    Those are the two of the biggest ones I can think of.

    Tbh, your point kinda speaks to the fact that perhaps all semi-automatic guns should be restricted, not that rifles shouldn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Not to mention how infrequently they are used in crime.
    Granted.

    I don't think this contradicts my point, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The overwhelming majority of semi-auto rifle owners just like to shoot targets.
    That's fine, and I don't disagree.

    They can practice with other weapons for 10 years of licensure, and then, if deemed psychologically fit, purchase their semi-automatic rifle.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    I'm not seeing what that ban achieves that could not be achieved with better screening
    I actually said the same thing.

    I was the one who recommended the psychological evaluation; my friend proposed the 10-yr wait.

    We combined the two, and, frankly, we both ended up thinking it would work pretty well.

    Once again, *scout's honor* both of us think gun control freaks are retarded.

    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    ...or how it could prevent someone younger from circumventing it with a private purchase etc..
    Well, there's no way to prevent this, I agree.

    Taking away the legal purchase, though, does put up greater hurdles for them to get their hands on them.

  8. #78
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    I'm sorry.

    I could not help myself.


  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Yes, including when you are 5 yrs old.

    So does that mean we should allow 5 yr olds to purchase semi-automatic rifles?

    The point is, your point doesn't actually detract from my point.

    My point is to allow the public to arm itself against such possible threats, if it feels it necessary to.

    But, at the same time, also making it difficult enough to do so that we can hopefully prevent people like James Holmes from getting their hands on them.

    I also think that people are generally wiser at 28 than 18, or 24, and, as that would be the youngest age at which one could get one, it's a reasonable limit.
    All good points.

    But in my humble opinion, even these justifications don't cross the threshold I would require ban them.

    For me that threshold would be crossed with statistical crime data.

    But reasonable people disagree all the time, and while I may disagree with your opinion I don't see it as unreasonable.

    Columbine was, no?

    And this one.

    Those are the two of the biggest ones I can think of.
    The closest thing approximating an assault rifle in Columbine was this:



    A Hi-Point model 995 carbine rifle

    A weapon that was designed to circumvent the AR ban in the 90's crime bill. This weapon doesn't have a magazine forward of the trigger group.

    It's chambered in a pistol cartridge and the magazine only holds 10.

    Tbh, your point kinda speaks to the fact that perhaps all semi-automatic guns should be restricted, not that rifles shouldn't.
    That is the point.

    If you really wanted to stop mass shootings (or have a better chance of stopping them given that laws can be circumvented easily) just ban all semi-autos and be done with it.

    Granted.

    I don't think this contradicts my point, though.
    It doesn't necessarily, but it establishes that there is no reasonable statistical justification for the ban.


    I actually said the same thing.

    I was the one who recommended the psychological evaluation; my friend proposed the 10-yr wait.

    We combined the two, and, frankly, we both ended up thinking it would work pretty well.

    Once again, *scout's honor* both of us think gun control freaks are retarded.
    It could work, insofar as it wouldn't be circumvented by those with massacre on the brain.

    Well, there's no way to prevent this, I agree.

    Taking away the legal purchase, though, does put up greater hurdles for them to get their hands on them.
    Yes it does. But are those hurdles, that would stop any law abiding adult (under 28) from purchasing an AR, but would just make it a little more difficult for those given to circumventing US law, worth the fight we would have politically to implement them.

    This would be treated like a ban by the right. And would be a nonstarter because they are always going to look at bans like this as part of a slippery slope that makes it easier to ban something else "we can't justify owning" in the future.

    I'm of the opinion that it isn't the citizen that needs to justify owning something that is currently legal, but the government that needs to justify making it illegal.

    The legality of pot comes to mind (as far as the gov't needing to justify the prohibition of something).

    More to the point, this would provide a platform for the left to push for further bans. To act like that is not ultimately the aim of many on the left would be in my estimation foolish.

    The National Firearms Act (making it mostly illegal to own automatics, or SBR's) was passed in the wake of the St. Valentines Day massacre and many other criminal shootings of that ilk.

    Here I don't see a reason to ban just AR's.

    If you really wanted to reduce mass shootings as much as you legally can (crazies will circumvent the laws) then just ban all semiauto's and be done with it.

    There is a better argument to be made there, but that argument would certainly be trounced by the opinion of the American people.

  10. #80
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Both of us realize that the arguments of most gun control freaks are idiotic.

    But we both agreed that the ability to buy an assault rifle is something that should require extra restrictions.

    We settled on two conditions: 1) one must have a gun license for at least 10 years (to prevent people who want to go buy one in order to imminently commit an assault); and 2) pass a psychological evaluation saying that you are mentally fit for owning such a weapon (i.e., extremely low probability of ever using it illegally).
    I agree with the first two points, but I think ten years is a little drastic; I say just make it something you need a license for (with a psychological evaluation being part of the process), similar to the way concealed carry works.

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