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  1. #141
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    you do realize that not everyone who owns a gun goes on crazy shooting sprees, and that they have safety classes you can take, that teach you gun etiquette. I've never taken any such classes or owned a gun and probably never will. but i don't have my head so far up my ass that i think owning a gun=murderer. and most people who use guns for crime get them from the black market so they can't be traced back to them.
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  2. #142
    Senior Member Winds of Thor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prplchknz View Post
    you do realize that not everyone who owns a gun goes on crazy shooting sprees, and that they have safety classes you can take, that teach you gun etiquette. I've never taken any such classes or owned a gun and probably never will. but i don't have my head so far up my ass that i think owning a gun=murderer. and most people who use guns for crime get them from the black market so they can't be traced back to them.
    Actually, virtually or almost all of the hype is a spin made to be portrayed in one form or another. And you are exactly right. 90 guns/100 people, or 50% of the pop. exercising their right to bear arms..juxtaposed to life which is lived without fear and with love of our rights, shows that the sensationalism staged by television and newspapers is an amplified go-for-all to attempt an exploit on invading people's consciousness and opinions. None of it really measures up in ever justifying controlling people especially because binding people only eventually causes more freedom. It's the way it goes.

    So, back to where we are, the sensical thing is to defend and keep your rights. Right on.
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  3. #143
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    That's 100% true, but since this is a topic about gun control specifically I just thought someone should actually be digging up the relevant data. There's also no reason not to do both if both made a difference.
    Even if gun control laws reduce gun violence, that does not necessarily justify government restriction of gun ownership. I'd like to see how much violence was reduced by ending the drug war before considering limiting the rights of mentally fit, law-abiding citizens.
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  4. #144
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Reducing the number of guns does not alter the nature and number of people seeking them.



    YOU MUST ARM EVERYONE
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  5. #145
    Senior Member Gish's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Reducing the number of guns does not alter the nature and number of people seeking them.



    YOU MUST ARM EVERYONE
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  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei;1913935I
    don't really expect anyone outside of the Southern US to understand why owning weaponry is such an important topic to us. It is a cultural thing. It has nothing to do with self-defense, independence, hunting, etc. These all add to it.. but it is cultural for Americans to own guns. It is something unique to our country and the people within it. I don't understand, and never will, why women wear Burqas when nothing really mandates it in any sacred texts. But I don't tell them to take the damn things off just because I don't agree with them and think they could potentially be security risks.
    The USA is a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, and in particular, the Right to Life. But as I write, more Americans are killed by gunshot in ten States of the USA than are killed in car accidents.

    The USA is unable to help itself, so perhaps we could bring the USA before the bar of the United Nations, or perhaps before the International Criminal Court.

  7. #147
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    How is the first thing you mentioned not a reasonably desired outcome, though?
    If homocide and violent crime rates are the same but gun-related homocides and violent crimes are down? I don't see that being perfect, but I don't see it being impossible either. I don't see people not having guns stopping them from doing bad things.. I only see the way they do bad things changing. To be honest, I think guns keep criminals stupid.. and I sort of like that.

    Sure, I think some of it will go down.. but the initial clean up will be messy. It will be much easier to get guns out of the hands of regular civilians than it will be the 'bad guys'. We already have laws that prevent baddies from owning guns, and somehow they still get their hands on them. So there will be a tip in power there for a while until everything balances out and government gains the control it is looking for. I'm not even going to mention the crime rates for illegal gun imports skyrocketing, which I am sure will happen.

    And on top of that, it is STILL a cultural thing. Like I said, I don't expect anyone to understand why we Southern folk like our guns. It really isn't a logical thing, but its an emotional one and a historical one. People don't want to forget where they came from, and once upon a time not too long ago (and it still happens today), guns were our only source of protection from the elements and other people. It was odd to NOT have one. Cars account for more deaths every year than anything else in the US, and we're not putting stricter controls on drivers and who is allowed to drive. And Cars were not even designed for killing. Simply because they weren't DESIGNED for killing they have no stigma on them whatsoever.

    The dude in Colorado had booby trapped his apartment. I doubt not owning a gun was going to stop him.
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  8. #148
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    You know what, America, you're not in a meaningful position to talk about control. You have too many guns already, you live with them too closely, and you kind of like sending them overseas for other people to own too. You are talking about regulated distribution, and always have been. Just like with cars and cigarettes. But you know how this works though, right? That uneasy balance you have to keep maintained between distribution and regulation, it tires people out. Eventually you're not going to be able to refer to guns as lethal without... oh wait, it already happens, doesn't it, the rolled eyes, the sneers. Well done, I guess.

    Keeping ahead of trends is a good thing, it's a leading edge. Where does this trend lead? I won't go so far as to assume you know. It's just interesting.
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  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If homocide and violent crime rates are the same but gun-related homocides and violent crimes are down? I don't see that being perfect, but I don't see it being impossible either. I don't see people not having guns stopping them from doing bad things.. I only see the way they do bad things changing. To be honest, I think guns keep criminals stupid.. and I sort of like that.

    Sure, I think some of it will go down.. but the initial clean up will be messy. It will be much easier to get guns out of the hands of regular civilians than it will be the 'bad guys'. We already have laws that prevent baddies from owning guns, and somehow they still get their hands on them. So there will be a tip in power there for a while until everything balances out and government gains the control it is looking for. I'm not even going to mention the crime rates for illegal gun imports skyrocketing, which I am sure will happen.

    And on top of that, it is STILL a cultural thing. Like I said, I don't expect anyone to understand why we Southern folk like our guns. It really isn't a logical thing, but its an emotional one and a historical one. People don't want to forget where they came from, and once upon a time not too long ago (and it still happens today), guns were our only source of protection from the elements and other people. It was odd to NOT have one. Cars account for more deaths every year than anything else in the US, and we're not putting stricter controls on drivers and who is allowed to drive. And Cars were not even designed for killing. Simply because they weren't DESIGNED for killing they have no stigma on them whatsoever.

    The dude in Colorado had booby trapped his apartment. I doubt not owning a gun was going to stop him.
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  10. #150
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    If homocide and violent crime rates are the same but gun-related homocides and violent crimes are down? I don't see that being perfect, but I don't see it being impossible either. I don't see people not having guns stopping them from doing bad things.. I only see the way they do bad things changing. To be honest, I think guns keep criminals stupid.. and I sort of like that.
    Ah, what you're trying to say is that gun violence and homicide rates go down but in general stay the same, implying that people just found another way. I don't think there can be any serious argument that guns do not make people more dangerous. The only real argument here is about whether or not gun control laws keeps guns out of peoples' hands, but we know that once a person has a gun they are more dangerous. You might also want to remember how many people (many children) just shoot themselves or someone else accidentally.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Sure, I think some of it will go down.. but the initial clean up will be messy. It will be much easier to get guns out of the hands of regular civilians than it will be the 'bad guys'. We already have laws that prevent baddies from owning guns, and somehow they still get their hands on them. So there will be a tip in power there for a while until everything balances out and government gains the control it is looking for. I'm not even going to mention the crime rates for illegal gun imports skyrocketing, which I am sure will happen.
    Americans think they have laws for keeping guns out of dangerous peoples' hands. If you check out gun regulations in a lot of other developed nations you'll see the USA's are kind of flimsy, to say the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    And on top of that, it is STILL a cultural thing. Like I said, I don't expect anyone to understand why we Southern folk like our guns. It really isn't a logical thing, but its an emotional one and a historical one. People don't want to forget where they came from, and once upon a time not too long ago (and it still happens today), guns were our only source of protection from the elements and other people. It was odd to NOT have one.
    There are lots of things that used to be normal that aren't any more which lack lobbyists defending our ability to keep them. On this, I'm going to say that I don't care if it's a cultural thing. If you're saying the culture makes the law less effective there might be and interesting point there. However, if you're just saying that cultural attachments will make people unhappy, I don't really care. We had to take slaves from the south, and boy they didn't like that!

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Cars account for more deaths every year than anything else in the US, and we're not putting stricter controls on drivers and who is allowed to drive. And Cars were not even designed for killing. Simply because they weren't DESIGNED for killing they have no stigma on them whatsoever.
    No, there's a way better argument for why cars are not as regulated; cars are vastly more useful. There cost-benefit analysis between a car vs. a gun is so completely different that the comparison makes a fatuous argument. Furthermore, cars kill me people because they are used so frequently, which is because they are so immensely useful and basically power our economy and lifestyle. A gun is borderline useless. The only thing it does is kill. That's it's purpose. You'd have a hard time explaining how you shot someone dead while you were going about the daily grind.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    The dude in Colorado had booby trapped his apartment. I doubt not owning a gun was going to stop him.
    It wouldn't have stopped him. It probably would have brought his kill and injury rate down.
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