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  1. #81
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Hannah H could be considered as a jolie-laide, Simone de B and Ayn R are just ugly.
    Eh - they all, like everybody ever, turned into an old frog as they aged. However, before that point, I think Simone de B might qualify.

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  2. #82
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    I don't judge the others in the same way I judge Rand. She's the one who made appeals to "objective" aesthetics. She also held Aristotle in high regard (and Plato, implicitly). She should be judged by those standards (and thus, be considered ugly).

    The truth is, I don't even think she thought it through. She just rationalized her own bias and called it objective. Her tastes seemed full of simplistic value judgements. Like she called Beethoven "malevolent" (and this was apparently an "objective" fact).

  3. #83
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Like she called Beethoven "malevolent" (and this was apparently an "objective" fact).
    LOLOL.
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  4. #84
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I don't judge the others in the same way I judge Rand. She's the one who made appeals to "objective" aesthetics. She also held Aristotle in high regard (and Plato, implicitly). She should be judged by those standards (and thus, be considered ugly).
    Why Plato implicitly?

    "From Plato to the present, it has been the dream of certain philosophers and social planners to circumvent this process, and, instead, to inject a controversial ideology directly into the plastic, unformed minds of children—by means of seizing a country's educational system and turning it into a vehicle for indoctrination. In this way, one may capture an entire generation, and thus, shortly, a country, without intellectual resistance, in a single coup d'école." Pragmatism Vs. America, Pt 2.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #85
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Why Plato implicitly?
    I know she admired Aristotle (and only say Plato because of their association). My main point was just that Aristotle objectified beauty and so did Plato (albeit in different ways).

  6. #86
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    I know she admired Aristotle (and only say Plato because of their association). My main point was just that Aristotle objectified beauty through symmetry and so did Plato (the difference being he was more metaphysical and idealist).
    Both philosophers also made a lot of mistakes, some major and some minor. Aristotle should be denigrated for his belief that, say, woman possesses fewer teeth than man. That's a major mistake because it proves that he simply didn't check, where checking would have been very easy to do. And Rand was a big believer in empirical proof.

    However, despite his numerous errors, it is obvious that Rand didn't base her love of Aristotle off of these kinds of details. Neither did she base her pure hatred of Plato off of these kinds of details. Rand is looking at the overall picture and determining historical causes and effects. She held that Platonism was the source of tremendous errors and disasters throughout history, culminating in Kantianism, Communism, and Nazi Germany. Therefore your view that Rand implicitly admired Plato because of some minor detail in his system that mirrors something in Aristotle's is just plain wrong, perhaps even outrageously wrong.

    Read "For The New Intellectual" to get a better view of how Rand implicitly admired none of these "mystics."

    (If you said something like that in one of her 1960s meetings, she would have likely walked up to the microphone and roared quite a few epithets in your general direction, culminating in your being ejected from the meeting. Yes, she was that intense.)
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #87
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Therefore your view that Rand implicitly admired Plato because of some minor detail in his system that mirrors something in Aristotle's is just plain wrong, perhaps even outrageously wrong.
    Minor detail in his system? It's the only detail in his system. When people say "Platonism", it's what they're addressing. Why I compare them is that all of them believe in some kind of objective model of the universe, morality, aesthetics, etc.. There's nothing outrageously wrong about putting them in the same room. It's a wide category full of philosophers at each other's throats. They all shoot for the same underlying idea. They just go about it differently. But when any of them bring aesthetics into the picture, as a seperate "entity" apart from the observer, then they all establish similar rules where someone like Ayn Rand can be considered ugly.

  8. #88
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Minor detail in his system? It's the only detail in his system. When people say "Platonism", it's what they're addressing. Why I compare them is that all of them believe in some kind of objective model of the universe, morality, aesthetics, etc.. There's nothing outrageously wrong about putting them in the same room. It's a wide category full of philosophers at each other's throats. They all shoot for the same underlying idea. They just go about it differently. But when any of them bring aesthetics into the picture, as a seperate "entity" apart from the observer, then they all establish the same rules where someone like Ayn Rand can be considered ugly.
    Please either consider my entire argument or read For The New Intellectual.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  9. #89
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    This is a pretty interesting video. I don't agree with her but she is impressive in how well she controls the pace of the interview, the clarity and directness with which she speaks. Makes me wish more television now was like this. He on the other hand has some serious 1950's announcer voice and I don't think does a very good job conducting the interview.

    I don't think she's all that ugly either and if she didn't have such objectionable ideas she'd be pretty cool.

    What type do you guys think she is?

    I think an INTJ.

  10. #90
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post

    What type do you guys think she is?

    I think an INTJ.
    Yep, her type has been settled on for a long time now, although of course there will always be a few hold outs.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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