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  1. #51
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Yes. We can also say that about Hanna Arendt and Simone de Beauvoir.




    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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  2. #52

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    I knew there was a reason I fancied redheaded scots rather than capitalist Russians, what do you think Rand would think of Russia today? Absolute win is what she'd think, time to get the state of peoples backs EVEN MORE is what she'd think, know how I know? Because her books were intellectually at about the pitch of most of her teenage fan club.

  3. #53
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You call me a jerk asshole?
    My memory isn't the clearest since it was a while ago, so I can neither accuse nor acquit. But I believe your capacity for potential jerkiness. Should you pursue the mantle of "jerk", I expect you will take the title through sheer achievement, not being given it undeservedly.
    Does he want a pillow for his head?

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    My memory isn't the clearest since it was a while ago, so I can neither accuse nor acquit. But I believe your capacity for potential jerkiness. Should you pursue the mantle of "jerk", I expect you will take the title through sheer achievement, not being given it undeservedly.
    As titles go Jerk was already taken, so I took Awesome instead.

  5. #55
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I guess what I was getting at was: If it is immoral to disregard another persons rights then I don't understand how this fits with the idea that we should never feel compelled to do something that goes against our rational determined self interests. If I'm in a situation were there are limited resources it makes sense to eliminate my competition from a logical standpoint if the thing I value most is my own survival.
    When Rand says that life is the value from which all other values are derived, this is a metaphysical starting point, meta-moral and not a moral one. Therefore you should not take it normatively in terms of this or that example of one's choosing. It is the point from which principles are derived, not from which actual decisions are made about real life circumstances. But it's easy to see your confusion as Rand was not entirely clear about this.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #56
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My understanding of Rand is that the choice is between taking control of your life and following your own will/desires/destiny, or letting others control you and becoming just a pawn for someone else's dreams. Yes, inclusion of the requirement not to force the actions of others is what allows the fundamental selfishness to be practiced in a social setting. In a way, it is like the Wiccan Rede: "If it harm none, do as ye will."
    "Taking control of your life" is defined under "man qua rational being," although the taking control must be based on rational principle. So you're making your own decisions but you're also not controlled by your own whims (emotions, irrational desires, habits, addictions, etc).

    It's not like the Wiccan rule which sounds suspiciously libertarian. One should say instead, "Harm neither oneself nor others." Otherwise you could potentially sacrifice yourself to your own whims. For example, if you believe that doing drugs is a victimless crime, stop and consider the harm and the crime the drug addict is doing to himself.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #57
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The second sex? Really? When I heard it was on the codex of banned books by the RCC and just how much they hated it I had to read it and discovered it was dreadfully over rated and I think they probably hadnt read it and had projected a lot of mysogynistic fears upon it, I thought it wasnt that insightful or extraordinary but then again a lot of non-fiction which I find people have big reactions to, positively or negatively, isnt that personally satisfactory or interesting. I didnt like the novels, either the ones collected as the woman destroyed or the blood of others, although the blood of others had an interesting premise and so it was probably twice as disappointing.
    When I first read The Second Sex in undergrad, I thought it was quite revolutionary (even, or perhaps especially, in comparison to other, more recent feminist writing.) Sure, a lot of the book is spent on defense against and reaction to shit that was really only relevant to the time period in which she wrote (like the entire biology section and all of the huffing and puffing against psychoanalysis), but the way she conceptualized the more general aspects of the problem was, I thought, quite apt. Did you find yourself disappointed because the "insights" in the book were, by the time you read it, old-hat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    To say that something is more informative than Satre is not saying a lot, I know why Camus hated that guy so much, I'm surprised that no one reading Satre's books doesnt instantaneously hate him. To me he's the epitome of the pretensious intellectual, he even wrote long essays about what he dreamed intellectualism would amount too and it really does confirm all the prejudices about them being the worst sort of navel gazing and rabble rousing over privileged malcontents.
    I can't argue with that, though I think that only adds value to de Beauvoir's more lucid and straightforward style in comparison.

    I don't like when writing annoys me, and his certainly does. He's second only to Foucault in intellectual self-absorption and masturbation in my book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I felt that there's better books on the Nuremburg trials or the banality of Nazism/evil, never thought the writing was good at all, when I was much younger I read her book on revolution and thought it was great too, she praises direct democracy and counciliar republics, lots of it seems fantastic and then ultimately it all disappoints because the suggests that while its all vital none of it should be expected to operate in the economy, that socialist ideas about radical democracy or about democratising business are all wrong. I'm more inclined to go with GDH Cole's idea that if people are deprived of democratic choices or responsibility for 99% of their lives, ie their working and daily lives, then elections are a sham and will even representation or limited democracy will wither on the vine leaving only grievances despots will exploit.
    Yeah, this is her biggest shortcoming, IMO. Her nostalgia for the lost polis seems to blind her to areas in which the mishmash of shit she calls "private" crosses over into the "public." Greek women and slave class be damned! No social justice for you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post




    What's that insufferable Franglais word? Jolie-laide? Or just, what, laide-laide?
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  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    When I first read The Second Sex in undergrad, I thought it was quite revolutionary (even, or perhaps especially, in comparison to other, more recent feminist writing.) Sure, a lot of the book is spent on defense against and reaction to shit that was really only relevant to the time period in which she wrote (like the entire biology section and all of the huffing and puffing against psychoanalysis), but the way she conceptualized the more general aspects of the problem was, I thought, quite apt. Did you find yourself disappointed because the "insights" in the book were, by the time you read it, old-hat?



    I can't argue with that, though I think that only adds value to de Beauvoir's more lucid and straightforward style in comparison.

    I don't like when writing annoys me, and his certainly does. He's second only to Foucault in intellectual self-absorption and masturbation in my book.



    Yeah, this is her biggest shortcoming, IMO. Her nostalgia for the lost polis seems to blind her to areas in which the mishmash of shit she calls "private" crosses over into the "public." Greek women and slave class be damned! No social justice for you!



    What's that insufferable Franglais word? Jolie-laide? Or just, what, laide-laide?
    What I didnt like about de Bouvoir's book was that it read to me like "I dont like these things, want to be in my gang and dislike them too?", really that's what I felt it read like, I was able to accept that a lot of it was of its time and necessarily dated but especially what she had to say against psychoanalysis was never true, not even then, I knew a lot of smart people, feminists by the very best of intentions and smart too, who shunned psychoanalysis, encouraged others to likewise, even proceeding to attack the enlightenment as an extention of psychoanalysis and an epitome of old, white guys conspiring to keep women out of the picture.

    I sometimes wonder what it would have been like to get the views of someone like Karen Horney, who I'd not call a feminist in particular, upon reading something like The Second Sex, her book on feminine sexuality was so much better a response to some of the prejudice or cultural contrivances in Freud.

    We're in agreement about Arendt then, I dont like a lot of continental philosophy, I think its bluffers horseshit or exaggerations upon singular and simple or simplistic themes, like Popper did, there are exceptions, Habermas, Wittgenstein but they are damn hard to read, I even thought Jung was difficult to read initially and I've read enough to know that both Jung and Freud suffer from mistranslations or cultural specifity which is lost on a lot of readers (myself included). A lot of it is just bad and they spend time reinventing the wheel rather than seriously studying or popularising prior philosophical thinking.

  9. #59
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "Taking control of your life" is defined under "man qua rational being," although the taking control must be based on rational principle. So you're making your own decisions but you're also not controlled by your own whims (emotions, irrational desires, habits, addictions, etc).

    It's not like the Wiccan rule which sounds suspiciously libertarian. One should say instead, "Harm neither oneself nor others." Otherwise you could potentially sacrifice yourself to your own whims. For example, if you believe that doing drugs is a victimless crime, stop and consider the harm and the crime the drug addict is doing to himself.
    We are not in disagreement here. Yes, taking control of your life is rational, but also influenced by your individual and often subjective values. Of course this is different from letting your emotions and whims rule you. That is letting your life control you. The Wiccan Rede includes the idea of harming oneself, not just harming others, and the idea of "do as ye will" does not mean "do whatever you want", i.e. responding to your whims of the moment. It is Will, with a capital W -- your dreams, your heart's desire, what you were put on earth to do. Many people focus on the first part, while neglecting the second.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #60
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    We are not in disagreement here. Yes, taking control of your life is rational, but also influenced by your individual and often subjective values. Of course this is different from letting your emotions and whims rule you. That is letting your life control you. The Wiccan Rede includes the idea of harming oneself, not just harming others, and the idea of "do as ye will" does not mean "do whatever you want", i.e. responding to your whims of the moment. It is Will, with a capital W -- your dreams, your heart's desire, what you were put on earth to do. Many people focus on the first part, while neglecting the second.
    "What you were put on the earth to do" is thoroughly undefinable and externally forced. It not only begs the question of "what to do" but also "what external power decided it for me."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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