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  1. #21
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    I was just wondering. It seems pretty ludicrous to me but I was wondering if anyone would provide an argument for it.

    For instance the idea that love cannot be self-sacrificial because the object of love gives pleasure to the individual, therefore whatever you do to protect/support your loved one is really protecting the way they make you feel and your own happiness. It seems really unrealistic though from the perspective f wanting to maintain long term relationships because those take compromise, both partners can't follow their own self interest all of the time. Also, that love is only the recognition of your own qualities and values in another person seems like it has undertones of narcissism.

    Also I couldn't seem to find much on her views of parenthood. Reproduction doesn't have much worth in terms of immediate self interest. You have to redirect funds toward the continuation of another persons survival and interrupt your life to care for a helpless being. If all actions are supposed to serve self interest having a child seems like it can only be justified as a way to create a source of 'love' by creating a person you can imbue with all of your qualities and values. Which creeps me out.

    Another thing too I don't understand is objectivism stance on the use of force. From my understanding she thought use of force on others was wrong because it robbed them of their capability to use reason. However if the most important thing is my own self-interest and happiness why should I care about anyone else's ability to reason or their rights.


    I honestly want some perspective, not looking for a fight.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    So you've read Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical by Chris Matthew Sciabarra? Or did you come up with that thesis yourself?
    I think its an obvious thesis if you're familiar with her stuff.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    You run out of intellect faster and faster as time goes by DB, still good that you're not in the closet about it or anything.
    Is this the part where I'm supposed to let the things you say anger me?

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I was just wondering. It seems pretty ludicrous to me but I was wondering if anyone would provide an argument for it.

    For instance the idea that love cannot be self-sacrificial because the object of love gives pleasure to the individual, therefore whatever you do to protect/support your loved one is really protecting the way they make you feel and your own happiness. It seems really unrealistic though from the perspective f wanting to maintain long term relationships because those take compromise, both partners can't follow their own self interest all of the time. Also, that love is only the recognition of your own qualities and values in another person seems like it has undertones of narcissism.

    Also I couldn't seem to find much on her views of parenthood. Reproduction doesn't have much worth in terms of immediate self interest. You have to redirect funds toward the continuation of another persons survival and interrupt your life to care for a helpless being. If all actions are supposed to serve self interest having a child seems like it can only be justified as a way to create a source of 'love' by creating a person you can imbue with all of your qualities and values. Which creeps me out.

    Another thing too I don't understand is objectivism stance on the use of force. From my understanding she thought use of force on others was wrong because it robbed them of their capability to use reason. However if the most important thing is my own self-interest and happiness why should I care about anyone else's ability to reason or their rights.


    I honestly want some perspective, not looking for a fight.
    It is a mess of contradictions, more a product of anti-socialism and attempting to create a creedo on the basis of what she believed socialists were consciously opposed to.

    Like some socialist theorists, Marx even, there isnt going to be an indication of prescriptions for everything parenting and the use of force included. It doesnt work precisely like that.

    It is very possible to argue in favour of legitimate self interest and that it is and should be the ultimate steer in human relations and politics, Erich Fromm argues this in his book Man For Himself, an enquiry into the psychology of ethics, although he thought that legitimate self interest, which I think he called self-love and linked into ancient maxim to love others as you love yourself, would prescribe a communitarian libertarian socialism or something like that.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Is this the part where I'm supposed to let the things you say anger me?
    Unless you've found some way to break the cycle its usually were there's a lot of macho posturing and talk about violence, yeah, good for you though.

  6. #26
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Both over rated shite writers if you ask me too.
    How dare you! Arendt is overrated, perhaps, but that shouldn't be a factor in assessing the quality or value of the work itself. And de Beauvoir is not even overrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Unless you've found some way to break the cycle its usually were there's a lot of macho posturing and talk about violence, yeah, good for you though.
    LOL "I'm going to beat you and your unmanly body!"
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Unless you've found some way to break the cycle its usually were there's a lot of macho posturing and talk about violence, yeah, good for you though.
    The mods already know the tale, and I have no interest in rehashing it for everyone.

    You make things personal, and I react in a personal manner.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I was just wondering. It seems pretty ludicrous to me but I was wondering if anyone would provide an argument for it.

    For instance the idea that love cannot be self-sacrificial because the object of love gives pleasure to the individual, therefore whatever you do to protect/support your loved one is really protecting the way they make you feel and your own happiness. It seems really unrealistic though from the perspective f wanting to maintain long term relationships because those take compromise, both partners can't follow their own self interest all of the time. Also, that love is only the recognition of your own qualities and values in another person seems like it has undertones of narcissism.

    Also I couldn't seem to find much on her views of parenthood. Reproduction doesn't have much worth in terms of immediate self interest. You have to redirect funds toward the continuation of another persons survival and interrupt your life to care for a helpless being. If all actions are supposed to serve self interest having a child seems like it can only be justified as a way to create a source of 'love' by creating a person you can imbue with all of your qualities and values. Which creeps me out.

    Another thing too I don't understand is objectivism stance on the use of force. From my understanding she thought use of force on others was wrong because it robbed them of their capability to use reason. However if the most important thing is my own self-interest and happiness why should I care about anyone else's ability to reason or their rights.


    I honestly want some perspective, not looking for a fight.
    The fact is that Galt stated he would commit suicide before seeing Dagny tortured by government thugs.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    How dare you.
    Are you serious? Which do you think are good writers?

    I read The Second Sex first and then worked through all of de Bouvoir's books, hoping to find something special, the novels, the blood of others, everything but I found nothing.

    Ardent was much the same, I had higher hopes of Eichmann in Jerusalem than what it turned out to be like.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    The mods already know the tale, and I have no interest in rehashing it for everyone.

    You make things personal, and I react in a personal manner.
    Well if that's the way you're choosing to rationalise it these days then fine. Do you think your experience is unique and what might that say? There is a difference between personal observations or feedback and threatening behaviour, I hope you learn that because its just beneficial to know and understand that.

    Anyway, I think you'll find that I've not been seeking to respond to any of your posts or threads really since the last episode and outburst, yet you keep trying to open discussions with me, its almost like your unconsciously wanting feedback as much you're resistant to the whole idea.

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