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  1. #201
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    The context of the story was that there was the high probability that the government would arrest Dagny and try to torture her into revealing Galt's secret hangout. But of course more importantly was the love they had for each other, and on a philosophical level, the theory that one's love expresses the highest values within a person. How to explain the desire to die rather than see the object of value suffer? That seems to be a contradiction of rational egoism, but according to Rand it isn't a contradiction at all.
    Why not? Feel free to chime in as well @B.simaruba

  2. #202
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Why not? Feel free to chime in as well B.simaruba
    Because she has reversed the common meaning of Selfishness, using it to defend things of moral/aesthetic value, rather than keeping it as some sociopathic idea that is commonly held about selfishness. That's why B.simaruba continually harps on the theme of "common" or "colloquial" beliefs versus Rand's beliefs.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #203
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Because she has reversed the common meaning of Selfishness, using it to defend things of moral/aesthetic value, rather than keeping it as some sociopathic idea that is commonly held about selfishness. That's why B.simaruba continually harps on the theme of "common" or "colloquial" beliefs versus Rand's beliefs.

    I've heard the argument that if you value something to the point where your life would be permanently negatively affected if it were to no on her exist it makes sense to be willing to die for it. But the ieea that abscense of something could make your life not worthing living seems to contradict Rand's premise that life is the ultimate goal.

  4. #204
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I've heard the argument that if you value something to the point where your life would be permanently negatively affected if it were to no on her exist it makes sense to be willing to die for it. But the ieea that abscense of something could make your life not worthing living seems to contradict Rand's premise that life is the ultimate goal.
    I have explained that last point before. But that's okay. I don't think the Randists understand it either. I've had this kind of conversation with them before and I don't get very intelligible answers. The problem is that Rand didn't answer every question, and Piekoff's effort was less than enlightening in many respects.

    The answer is that Rand's argument in the meta-morals section is not about your life or Galt's life or any individual's life. It is based on the concept of life, and more specifically, that of Man's Life Qua Man.

    In my view, that concept is transcendent of any particular life. It is a metaphysical idea, while you are obviously not a metaphysical idea. That's why it's a meta-moral argument. Meta-moral theory bridges the distinctions lying between metaphysics and ethics.

    That's why I keep saying that Rand's meta-morals is not based in empirical evidence. It is a formal or logical distinction, one designed to make the move from one branch of philosophy to another.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  5. #205
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    What I think you're trying to ask is how does Rand go from

    Man qua man, qua rational being, to

    The Individual.

    Rand created a string of arguments that, to my mind, are designed to intellectually persuade. But to be fair, in an important sense what she is trying to do here is relatively unique to philosophy. She is not just trying to prove something in theory, but also to persuade people to make the "pre-moral choice."

    That however is not philosophy. It's more like didactics.

    Rand herself never used the term "pre-moral choice," it's a term picked up and used by some authors to make things clearer. For example,
    http://www.importanceofphilosophy.co...lStandard.html
    "To every living thing, there is one primary choice, and that is to live or not -- to engage in the action required to further its own life or to engage in action that destroys its own life. The only other alternative is death. Choosing life as your standard of value is a pre-moral choice."

    In this, "life" is intended to mean "man's life qua man, qua rational being." That's not just any life, but a particular ideal regarding life.

    And so this is the answer to your question. Galt believes that "man's life qua man" would no longer be possible to him in the face of seeing those things he values destroyed (in this case, to see Dagny broken by the government he despises). He could still live, but, let's say, he would be a shell of the man that he once was, or something like that. It would be, in his view, immoral for him to continue his life in such a non-ideal state of being, where ideals are no longer possible to him because the source of values within has ceased to exist.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  6. #206
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Hahaha, this is awesome.

  7. #207
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I guess what I was getting at was: If it is immoral to disregard another persons rights then I don't understand how this fits with the idea that we should never feel compelled to do something that goes against our rational determined self interests. If I'm in a situation were there are limited resources it makes sense to eliminate my competition from a logical standpoint if the thing I value most is my own survival.
    Where did you get the idea that the thing one should value most is one's survival?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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