User Tag List

First 71516171819 Last

Results 161 to 170 of 207

  1. #161
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2012
    MBTI
    iNfj
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    4,042

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Which renders "exist harmoniously in tribes AGAIN" entirely superfluous. All it does is reveal your goal: that humans should live a peaceful Amer-Indian-like tribal existence.

    Oh well, at least you believe enough history to be aware that such tribes existed. So you're just taking the part of "history" that you believe in as evidence for a future goal.

    But it's really not necessary to dig very deep into history, the manifestations of collectivized tribalistic warfare are with us today.
    Fair enough. I have as much reason to believe things were a certain way for some people as you do to believe things about other people. My goal is not so simple, but does take elements from the cultures of many Native American tribes. As well as native European tribes, native African tribes, and early Japanese, early Hindu, etc. Tribal existence is highly variable, as is civilized existence. Many tribal societies in the modern age are affected by so many factors outside of our awareness (like political oppression, geographical division, and poverty), it is hard to get a clear picture of what a well functioning tribe looks like.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Ah, so the modern enemies are McDonalds, high fructose corn syrup (it used to be "processed sugar" a couple decades ago), and Christianity.

    But at the very basis of this, your true enemies are: Reason, Freedom of Thought and Religion, Individualism, Science, Technology - basically, everything that goes into creating a modern form of civilization.
    I'm not demonizing anything. This is not about good and evil. It is about what is healthy, plain and simple. Refined, processed, unnatural food is unhealthy. Period. Try to prove me wrong. I don't think you'll be able to prove that pesticide covered food is healthier than organic food, or that air pollution makes us healthier, or that cutting down trees is good for the planet.

    So I am simply identifying things which we could do for a positive outcome, and advocating that we do those things. Set goals and work toward them, in small steps.

    No, I like some of those just fine. But others are dangerous, because they have the potential for abuse of power. Technology can be very helpful, but it also comes with the disadvantage of having the power of destruction on a large scale. Anything powerful has the potential for abuse of power. And many humans don't understand how to use power with wisdom. The price of freedom is responsibility.





    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    And no more modern dental care. And there will be outhouses, or probably collective ditches to poop in. Now I'll admit, E. coli is certainly natural. And no anaesthesia, no modern medicine. People will still get sick in your natural environment. That sucks!
    Actually, there is evidence to suggest that refined sugar is what causes dental problems. If we weren't eating so much of it, we wouldn't really need much dental care. And they had plenty of herbal anesthesia, which worked just fine. Also there was far less degenerative disease. People got sick, obviously; but they generally cured themselves with herbs. Most deaths were caused by accidents, being eaten (or stung or bitten) by animals, or starvation.

    I am drawing conclusions about history here, but really it makes sense rationally. We evolved over thousands of years. Our bodies evolved to work best with the environment we lived in. Which was far different from what we have now. We faced far more environmental threats (like predators, weather, and food scarcity) than we do now; so in order to survive we had to have internal harmony so to speak; that is, we had to stick together and help one another, be pretty healthy, and psychologically balanced enough to handle life.

    To say otherwise is in my opinion illogical.

  2. #162
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    2,051

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I'd rather hear it from B. If he accepts the idea, then he's no Objectivist. Because there are quite enough diatriabes against "duty" in Objectivist circles and in the Randian literature. Do you know who Leonard Piekoff is? No? Piekoff is Ayn Rand's intellectual heir and for decades he was the head of the Ayn Rand Institute.He wrote an entire book arguing that the ethics of duty and self-sacrifice will lead to American Nazism.

    Start with this:

    http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/duty.html
    Okay so in objectivist vocabulary "duty" has a specific bad meaning, but you understood what I was trying to say.

    If we use the typical understanding of duty Objectivist could be said to have what we would describe as a "duty" to themselves. A duty to act within the tenets of objectivism.

  3. #163
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Fair enough. I have as much reason to believe things were a certain way for some people as you do to believe things about other people. My goal is not so simple, but does take elements from the cultures of many Native American tribes. As well as native European tribes, native African tribes, and early Japanese, early Hindu, etc. Tribal existence is highly variable, as is civilized existence. Many tribal societies in the modern age are affected by so many factors outside of our awareness (like political oppression, geographical division, and poverty), it is hard to get a clear picture of what a well functioning tribe looks like.

    I'm not demonizing anything. This is not about good and evil. It is about what is healthy, plain and simple. Refined, processed, unnatural food is unhealthy. Period. Try to prove me wrong. I don't think you'll be able to prove that pesticide covered food is healthier than organic food, or that air pollution makes us healthier, or that cutting down trees is good for the planet.

    So I am simply identifying things which we could do for a positive outcome, and advocating that we do those things. Set goals and work toward them, in small steps.

    No, I like some of those just fine. But others are dangerous, because they have the potential for abuse of power. Technology can be very helpful, but it also comes with the disadvantage of having the power of destruction on a large scale. Anything powerful has the potential for abuse of power. And many humans don't understand how to use power with wisdom. The price of freedom is responsibility.


    Actually, there is evidence to suggest that refined sugar is what causes dental problems.
    I had an answer partially composed and lost it. So let me just address this falsehood. When the Plains Indians learned to cultivate corn, this moment is positively correlated with the appearance of many cavities found by anthropologists studying their teeth.

    1. Of course the evidence suggests it. But you're missing the fact that sugar is sugar. The body doesn't care which kind of sugar molecule it is. Any diabetic can tell you this as this is the first lesson they learn. And your teeth don't care if the sugar is refined or natural.

    2. As Rand said, the problem of pollution can be, and has been, solved by technology, at least partially.

    3. "pesticide covered food" - sorry but this isn't the issue that's been brought up as of late. Lately, it has been genetically-modified food. Do you know what Round-up Ready corn is? No? It is corn that can be sprayed with Round-up, a weed killer, without being killed itself. Of course the anti-genetics crowd howled their defiance - AT A PRODUCT THAT CAN LITERALLY FEED 20 BILLION PEOPLE.

    So it's obvious that a healthy planet is not the socialist dream. Only a socialized planet is the socialist dream. The rest is mere propaganda.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #164
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Okay so in objectivist vocabulary "duty" has a specific bad meaning, but you understood what I was trying to say.

    If we use the typical understanding of duty Objectivist could be said to have what we would describe as a "duty" to themselves. A duty to act within the tenets of objectivism.
    You can always try to argue that way. I HAVE tried to argue that way. Realize that I argued with them for 10 years. Every one of these topics on this thread was touched on again, and again, and again. And now here I am just beating a dead horse.

    (And trying to convince people who have no knowledge of the subject.)
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #165
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    2,051

    Default

    [QUOTE=Mal+;1913605]You can always try to argue that way. I HAVE tried to argue that way. Realize that I argued with them for 10 years. Every one of these topics on this thread was touched on again, and again, and again. And now here I am just beating a dead horse.

    (And trying to convince people who have no knowledge of the subject.)[/]

    I get what you are saying, I was just pointing out that it more of a vocabulary problem than a failure to grasp the concepts.

  6. #166
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    [QUOTE=Pseudo;1913619]
    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    You can always try to argue that way. I HAVE tried to argue that way. Realize that I argued with them for 10 years. Every one of these topics on this thread was touched on again, and again, and again. And now here I am just beating a dead horse.

    (And trying to convince people who have no knowledge of the subject.)[/]

    I get what you are saying, I was just pointing out that it more of a vocabulary problem than a failure to grasp the concepts.
    That won't work with them either, where everything becomes a conceptual or epistemological problem and that's the final word.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #167

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    If you are talking about objective reality, this is true. In the sense that we are drawing conclusions about our outer world which are independent from our existence. But in terms of our individual inner worlds, and what we choose to do with our own lives, subjective reality can be true for one person and not true for another. Like if I say, "Bananas are delicious," this is true for me. But if you don't like bananas, it is not true for you.
    No. The validity of an objective identification of fact is always and ever an either/or black/white alternative. The identification either coincides with the actual reality or it does not. All other things being equal, there are no other alternatives. The statement "Bananas are delicious" is also true or false. You are either pleased by the taste of bananas or you are not (to one degree or another). That statement is not meant to be a universal truth by you or anyone else who makes it. It is only an objective statement of fact about a personal experience. The context is inherently personal, but it is still objective.

    Now if you mean that Bananas are inherently delicious in all human cases because you personally like them, then you are asserting a fact validated not by reference to the facts of reality, but rather by your whim. That is subjective and does not constitute a rational validation of the statement even if it were true.

    In short, objective conclusions are those logically traceable to sensory perceptions and so are consistent with actual reality. Subjective conclusions are traceable to what some consciousness wants or feels reality to be and any consistency with actual reality is purely coincidental.

  8. #168

    Default

    Pseudo and Mal+

    Re duty:

    Recall that I pointed out that the moral necessities to achieve a successful life are contingent on choosing life from the most fundamental alternative living entities face: life or death. Moral necessities arise only IF one chooses life. In the same way, every obligation is contingent on some choice one makes.

    A "duty" is an obligation that derives not as a consequence of one's own choice, but is rather imposed by some kind of authority. The concept of a duty directly contradicts the moral mandate for individual autonomy. Consequently, Objectivism rejects the concept altogether. There are not and cannot be unchosen obligations.

  9. #169
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    IxTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Socionics
    LII Ti
    Posts
    13,993

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by B.simaruba View Post
    Pseudo and Mal+

    Re duty:

    Recall that I pointed out that the moral necessities to achieve a successful life are contingent on choosing life from the most fundamental alternative living entities face: life or death. Moral necessities arise only IF one chooses life. In the same way, every obligation is contingent on some choice one makes.

    A "duty" is an obligation that derives not as a consequence of one's own choice, but is rather imposed by some kind of authority. The concept of a duty directly contradicts the moral mandate for individual autonomy. Consequently, Objectivism rejects the concept altogether. There are not and cannot be unchosen obligations.
    I know all that. Unfortunately, this definition doesn't come out of any dictionary. It's just made up wholesale.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #170
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    MBTI
    INTP
    Enneagram
    5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    2,051

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I know all that. Unfortunately, this definition doesn't come out of any dictionary. It's just made up wholesale.
    This was my point!

Similar Threads

  1. Ayn Rand is undoubtedly an ENTJ not an INTJ
    By Harlow_Jem in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 11-10-2017, 12:55 AM
  2. Ayn Rand: The Ultimate INTJ
    By Into It in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: 05-20-2011, 09:44 PM
  3. AYN RAND'S VAGINA SMOKING A BONG
    By Ginkgo in forum The Fluff Zone
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 01-25-2010, 02:01 AM
  4. Ayn Rand fandom and type
    By Economica in forum Popular Culture and Type
    Replies: 39
    Last Post: 11-10-2008, 01:45 AM
  5. [INTJ] The Fountainhead/Atlas Shrugged/Ayn Rand's Objectivism and INTJ's
    By Harlow_Jem in forum The NT Rationale (ENTP, INTP, ENTJ, INTJ)
    Replies: 44
    Last Post: 07-03-2008, 01:06 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO