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  1. #151
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.simaruba View Post
    Pseudo & Mal+

    The culprit is the colloquial interpretation of this:

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights,..

    What men are endowed with is the facts of their nature that necessitate autonomy (one's moral right to life). While that in turn necessitates the political right to life in a society of governed men, that condition is not an inevitable one. If a number of men live in a remote location (island or planet) only randomly interacting, and their number is not sufficient to establish an independent third party institution to regulate the use of force throughout that region, then there will be no government and in that case no reason to define political rights. As Leonard Peikoff described it, "the issue of rights would be premature."[OPAR,351]

    When a government is formed, the universal, unchanging, and endowed rightness of autonomy for the anonymous, all-other-things-being-equal man qua man informs the necessary political rights of specific all-other-things-NOT-being equal persons—i.e. of varying capacities to exercise autonomy. Moral right is the primary principle, political rights are its application. The former is universal, the latter are conditional.
    It is likely that 99% of those reading this thread don't know what OPAR stands for.

    Also, a "moral right" is a conflation of ethical and political categories.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  2. #152
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.simaruba View Post
    I did not. Just the opposite, the common denominator is to be an individual human being, irrespective of genetic makeup. if one day we discover life on another planet and beings who share not a single element of our genetic makeup, but they survive and thrive by the same method (rational, volitional) they too will qualify as humans in the context of political rights.

    If the braindead person did not name them as guardians in such an event, they might have personal interests, but they have no legal interest. if he did designate them, they do have rights.

    Your argument was that fetuses regardless of the fact that they act to continue their existence (life infants, with out any ability to make rational choices) do not have rights because they are not individuals. You argued that they aren't individuals because they share their identity with their mothers.

    Again in reference to the brain dead. I'm not concerned with political rights but the moral philosophy of Objectivism. As an objectivist what would my moral duty be in regards to these people. What would be the "good" thing to do?

  3. #153
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Your argument was that fetuses regardless of the fact that they act to continue their existence (life infants, with out any ability to make rational choices) do not have rights because they are not individuals. You argued that they aren't individuals because they share their identity with their mothers.

    Again in reference to the brain dead. I'm not concerned with political rights but the moral philosophy of Objectivism. As an objectivist what would my moral duty be in regards to these people. What would be the "good" thing to do?
    They don't believe in moral duties.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #154

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    It is likely that 99% of those reading this thread don't know what OPAR stands for.
    It's not hard to come by ... about 9 down in the Google results.

    Also, a "moral right" is a conflation of ethical and political categories.
    Not really. The word "right" has two contexts (that being a primary point I have struggled to make here). In the ethical context, "moral right" means right as opposed to wrong, right qua ethical imperative. The moral right is the only right in effect in the absence of a government.

    A political right is a principle defined to ensure that sustaining one's moral imperative (moral rights and wrongs) will not be interfered with by the government or other men when interacting in a governed society.

    As I indicated in the beginning, political rights are an extension of the moral rights in an individual context to the social context. It is this distinction that the colloquial notions of rights obfuscate.

  5. #155
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    They don't believe in moral duties.
    Yes they do. They moral duty to act in ones owns rational self interest. I'm not suggesting that they would beilieve they have any responsibility to help those people (Obviously not) but wondering how this obligation to the self would apply to this situation.

  6. #156
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.simaruba View Post
    It's not hard to come by ... about 9 down in the Google results.



    Not really. The word "right" has two contexts (that being a primary point I have struggled to make here). In the ethical context, "moral right" means right as opposed to wrong, right qua ethical imperative. The moral right is the only right in effect in the absence of a government.

    A political right is a principle defined to ensure that sustaining one's moral imperative (moral rights and wrongs) will not be interfered with by the government or other men when interacting in a governed society.

    As I indicated in the beginning, political rights are an extension of the moral rights in an individual context to the social context. It is this distinction that the colloquial notions of rights obfuscate.

    Again with this "colloquial" phrase. Accepting the idea that humans have certain inherent value as a philosophical truth does not mean they misunderstand "rights" it means they conceive of it in a way that is different from how you conceive of it.

  7. #157

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Again with this "colloquial" phrase. Accepting the idea that humans have certain inherent value as a philosophical truth does not mean they misunderstand "rights" it means they conceive of it in a way that is different from how you conceive of it.
    When two people have differing identifications of reality, one is wrong, one is right, or both are wrong. The phrase "colloquial notions" references the shallow and in part false understanding of rights that is prevalent in the world today.

  8. #158
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Yes they do. They moral duty to act in ones owns rational self interest. I'm not suggesting that they would beilieve they have any responsibility to help those people (Obviously not) but wondering how this obligation to the self would apply to this situation.
    I'd rather hear it from B. If he accepts the idea, then he's no Objectivist. Because there are quite enough diatriabes against "duty" in Objectivist circles and in the Randian literature. Do you know who Leonard Piekoff is? No? Piekoff is Ayn Rand's intellectual heir and for decades he was the head of the Ayn Rand Institute.He wrote an entire book arguing that the ethics of duty and self-sacrifice will lead to American Nazism.

    Start with this:

    http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/duty.html
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #159

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Yes they do. They moral duty to act in ones owns rational self interest. I'm not suggesting that they would beilieve they have any responsibility to help those people (Obviously not) but wondering how this obligation to the self would apply to this situation.
    The sense you intend is ok, but Mal+ is right that morality is not a duty. It is contingent on your choice to pursue life. IF one chooses to pursue life, reality will dictate the prerequisites.

    Re the braindead, they no longer have any rights, so I would no longer have any obligation to respect their rights, but I would have to respect the property rights of the braindead person's heirs who own his body.

  10. #160
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.simaruba View Post
    When two people have differing identifications of reality, one is wrong, one is right, or both are wrong. The phrase "colloquial notions" references the shallow and in part false understanding of rights that is prevalent in the world today.
    If you are talking about objective reality, this is true. In the sense that we are drawing conclusions about our outer world which are independent from our existence. But in terms of our individual inner worlds, and what we choose to do with our own lives, subjective reality can be true for one person and not true for another. Like if I say, "Bananas are delicious," this is true for me. But if you don't like bananas, it is not true for you.

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