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  1. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    You have stated there that under certain conditions the rights of others are subjugated to the desire of the individual to live.
    They are not subjugated to a desire. They are subjugated to a fact of reality—namely that it is a self-contradiction to define a right to one's life in such a way that sustaining it would result in one's death. It would therefore be immoral for one to define rights in such a way in the first place.

    How is an infant's existence any more "contingent on the validity of it's own volitional choices" than a fetus'? Infants cannot survive as lone individuals and are completely dependent on a parent of some sort.
    Sorry, but part of my reply did not get copied into the form so I added it while you were writing this. My reply to Mal+ now reads:
    ---
    "A baby acquires rights on becoming a separate human individual, but the extent of those rights is limited then, becoming complete on reaching the age and/or capacity of self-sufficiency.

    So too is learning and choosing primitive at first and just the start of the long-term cumulative process. Also remember that "existence" in this context refers to one's life qua man—not to mere physical existence.
    "
    ---

    Or if your suggesting that, because there could be a conflict between the two set of rights, it is more convenient to deny the one party political rights to avoid conflict ...
    "Convenient"? Really?

    There are not two "parties" here. There is only one, and she is due her rights. Rights are not "denied" to things that do not qualify in the first place.

  2. #112
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.simaruba View Post


    "Convenient"? Really?

    There are not two "parties" here. There is only one, and she is due her rights. Rights are not "denied" to things that do not qualify in the first place.
    But the problem is that objectivist qualifications for something to have rights seems very flawed.

    For instance the idea that children do not have inherent rights that are separate from their ability to make rational choices to continue their existence. Does this extend to people who are incapable of making choices such as the severely mental or physically handicapped? What about the mentally ill?

    If we are allowed to terminate things based on their inability to make rational choices to sustain themselves, (because abortion is not simply declining to help something exist) doesn't that lead to some horrible conclusions?

  3. #113
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.simaruba View Post
    They are not subjugated to a desire. They are subjugated to a fact of reality—namely that it is a self-contradiction to define a right to one's life in such a way that sustaining it would result in one's death. It would therefore be immoral for one to define rights in such a way in the first place.

    Also I think there is a flaw to this because it can only work against a system that defines man's purpose as to serve others. If his purpose is the serve the community including, but not limited to himself, then you can't argue that an obligation to sustain others as well as himself would result in his death. Or if his purpose is to fulfill some plan of a higher being rather than his own self interest, that also does not require his death to sustain it.

  4. #114
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    I haven't read any of her books, but I read a Wikipedia article on her/it. I agree with some things and not others. I think she is too black and white in her thinking, and thinks what works for her will work for everyone. Rational egoism and self interest sound good as ideas, but everything works in a balance. If everyone is doing this, they'll have to balance their actions against other people's. Both capitalism and socialism have elements that work. It's never an extreme one or the other situation. I personally am an anarchist/primitivist, but I don't think we should suddenly just scrap the whole system and think we can magically exist harmoniously in tribes again. It has to be a somewhat gradual shift. From what I read, she views "progress" and civilization as ideal; I strongly disagree. Since people always seem to talk about her, I'd like to read her books some day. The allure of the word "objectivism" is intriguing.

  5. #115
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    At minute 4:20, is the kind of thing that disturbs me. There is no idea of inherent dignity of human beings only their usefulness. I also think the idea that some human beings are better than others is not only disgusting and but a very stupid idea to run society off of. Who determines who is "gifted" and why does she argue that their activity sustains human life? Many extremely intelligent people have created things which have been detrimental to the continuation of human life. For instance, Ted Kaczynski, chief prodigy, incredibly gifted detrimental to society. Also all of the weaponry in existence.

  6. #116
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    So?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I considered that but ESTJs are usually hardcore traditionalists so the whole idea of "creating a new morality" seems like it would would be upsetting to them. I don't disagree however that ESTJs love them some Ayn Rand.
    I never take stuff like "traditionalist" too literally. I think it just means that they don't frequently change their minds and can be closed off to alternative viewpoints once they've decided on whatever structure they're going to maintain as their tradition. Ayn Rand certainly has that quality about her.

    And anyway, much of her "philosophy" is derivative. It's kind of like she just read Aristotle and Hobbes and gave them her own weird practical spin.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #117
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Eh - they all, like everybody ever, turned into an old frog as they aged. However, before that point, I think Simone de B might qualify.

    Ugly. Seriously. If she was a hooker, she could not even find a customer. And she was was not gifted of any sort of sensuality.
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  8. #118
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Being forced to sign on with TARP was a good thing then?
    No. I am not convinced they really were unable to avoid doing so altogether. His response sounded cagey, like the politicians who vote themselves a raise but then claim personally to have opposed it, while accepting the money.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #119
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by B.simaruba View Post
    A baby acquires rights on becoming a separate human individual, but the extent of those rights is limited then, becoming complete on reaching the age and/or capacity of self-sufficiency.

    So too is learning and choosing primitive at first and just the start of the long-term cumulative process. Also remember that "existence" in this context refers to one's life qua man—not to mere physical existence.
    Baby's life qua baby?

    Do you know what "man's life qua man" means?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #120
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    No. I am not convinced they really were unable to avoid doing so altogether. His response sounded cagey, like the politicians who vote themselves a raise but then claim personally to have opposed it, while accepting the money.
    Click on this and move on to 1:49 in the video
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNk45cqkiyk

    ("...and had them closed in his office and wouldn't essentially let them out until they had signed the TARP bill...")
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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