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  1. #51
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    You've got to be fucking kidding me. Plain clothes police officers knock on your door, you don't know they are police, you carry a weapon to door, because you have no idea who is at your door, and you die.

    Well, see, we have a right to bear arms in this country.

    Also, what if the police think you're a terrorist, and the government stalks and profile you, even though you're innocent? Is that your personal responsibility too?

    On one side of the government we have nutcases who want to punish the poor for being poor, but have insane police officers who are allowed to literally get away with murder, and all kinds of invasions of privacy, like the Patriot Act, and not allowing gays to marry, but the liberals are the enemy since they at least want to give people education and health in exchange for all of these insane restrictions imposed upon them?

    I would like to go to countries in Western Europe so I can have benefit without the fear, thanks.

    Maybe in a country where people weren't so highly armed, so many people wouldn't be killed, either. And I mean BOTH...citizens and regular police officers, drunk on power.
    Well no. I just don't want to give the idea that opening a door while brandishing a weapon is some kind of street smart thing to do, because it isn't.

    It was his right to do so and they shouldn't have had to shoot him, yet at the same time it is a bad idea for reasons that I have already outlined. It isn't wrong, it just isn't practical and might even be dangerous. It's displaying your weapon in a case where you probably won't be able to use it for various reasons.

    Just like the old guy mentioned above who went out with his rifle to 'scare off' some people. Maybe in his time this was the right thing to do, but now more often criminals are wise to tricks and armed, and approaching them is a hazard. This poor guy would have hung himself out in any case for confronting without being able to back it up.

    We don't have meddling hooligans who can be scared off by guns that you probably don't intend to use anymore. We have thugs who will kill you.

  2. #52
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    I don't see what there is to debate here. Who cares if they were in uniform or not? I don't think those kinds of details change anything in this case. They got the wrong guy, at the wrong place, and then they killed him. The cops failed at their job on multiple levels, and they consequently bear the lion's share (if not the entirety) of responsibility for the fucked up outcome.
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Well no. I just don't want to give the idea that opening a door while brandishing a weapon is some kind of street smart thing to do, because it isn't.

    It was his right to do so and they shouldn't have had to shoot him, yet at the same time it is a bad idea for reasons that I have already outlined. It isn't wrong, it just isn't practical and might even be dangerous. It's displaying your weapon in a case where you probably won't be able to use it for various reasons.

    Just like the old guy mentioned above who went out with his rifle to 'scare off' some people. Maybe in his time this was the right thing to do, but now more often criminals are wise to tricks and armed, and approaching them is a hazard. This poor guy would have hung himself out in any case for confronting without being able to back it up.

    We don't have meddling hooligans who can be scared off by guns that you probably don't intend to use anymore. We have thugs who will kill you.
    Then maybe the right to bear arms has become meaningless, if ordinary citizens are killed for answering their door with a weapon or for trying to scare people away with a shotgun...there's no point to us having weapons, because the police or gangsters will murder us, regardless of whether or not we're armed.

    And in most cases, if you use a machine gun, you'd probably just end up in prison.

    So our right to bear arms has been turned against us, and I am beginning to wonder how practical it is. It is important to be able to hunt, and to shoot if intruder breaks in, but all other gun use will probably be turned against you rather than work for you.

    In the case where my friends were wrongly lined up against the wall like Cuban prisoners or Russian Czars at 7 AM after the government intruded into their living space, I guess no chaos took place since we're all pretty "nice" people who defend ourselves with reason and cooperation, and aren't big on weaponry.

    I will never forget sitting up in my bed, seeing an officer with a rifle strapped to his back walking through my bedroom, and then later finding out that my friends had been lined up against the wall like common thugs.

  4. #54
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Then maybe the right to bear arms has become meaningless, if ordinary citizens are killed for answering their door with a weapon or for trying to scare people away with a shotgun...there's no point to us having weapons, because the police or gangsters will murder us, regardless of whether or not we're armed.

    And in most cases, if you use a machine gun, you'd probably just end up in prison.

    So our right to bear arms has been turned against us, and I am beginning to wonder how practical it is. It is important to be able to hunt, and to shoot if intruder breaks in, but all other gun use will probably be turned against you rather than work for you.

    In the case where my friends were wrongly lined up against the wall like Cuban prisoners or Russian Czars at 7 AM after the government intruded into their living space, I guess no chaos took place since we're all pretty "nice" people who defend ourselves with reason and cooperation, and aren't big on weaponry.

    I will never forget sitting up in my bed, seeing an officer with a rifle strapped to his back walking through my bedroom, and then later finding out that my friends had been lined up against the wall like common thugs.
    The whole point of having a weapon is being able to use it. This is why police have such a pragmatic view about it - pointing a weapon translates into imminent readiness to kill. Not scare, kill.

    Hunting and shooting when someone breaks in and threatens your life are the uses for firearms. Aside from sport shooting, it indicates readiness to kill in the next moment. Anyone who is serious about it will try to kill first which is what makes any other type of use very dangerous in a practical setting.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    The whole point of having a weapon is being able to use it. This is why police have such a pragmatic view about it - pointing a weapon translates into imminent readiness to kill. Not scare, kill.

    Hunting and shooting when someone breaks in and threatens your life are the uses for firearms. Aside from sport shooting, it indicates readiness to kill in the next moment. Anyone who is serious about it will try to kill first which is what makes any other type of use very dangerous in a practical setting.
    The L.A. police once shot a drunk man at 4 AM because he was watering his friends lawn, and the police couldn't tell if it was a waterhose or a gun.

    All very comforting things to know about the police, that they just go around shooting at people, because apparently they have PTSD from having to deal with people in gangs and teenagers packing heat constantly, that even "normal" people bear the consequences.

    The police pulled guns on my friends after waltzing into a house that a parolee happened to randomly give the address to, and you've made no comment about that. Don't worship authority blindly just because it doesn't gel with your view of reality or your ideal. There are some REAL problems with the police in the U.S. that have nothing to do with citizens brandishing weapons impulsively.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    The L.A. police once shot a drunk man at 4 AM because he was watering his friends lawn, and the police couldn't tell if it was a waterhose or a gun.

    All very comforting things to know about the police, that they just go around shooting at people, because apparently they have PTSD from having to deal with people in gangs and teenagers packing heat constantly, that even "normal" people bear the consequences.

    The police pulled guns on my friends after waltzing into a house that a parolee happened to randomly give the address to, and you've made no comment about that. Don't worship authority blindly just because it doesn't gel with your view of reality or your ideal. There are some REAL problems with the police in the U.S. that have nothing to do with citizens brandishing weapons impulsively.
    I agree that there are real problems with police.

    Just because I'm speaking of a different issue does not mean that I'm ignoring what you are saying or blindly worshiping authority.

    I'm by no means a fan of police. There's no need to paint me as one just because I'm not vehemently decrying their evils at this moment.

  7. #57
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I agree that there are real problems with police.

    Just because I'm speaking of a different issue does not mean that I'm ignoring what you are saying or blindly worshiping authority.

    I'm by no means a fan of police. There's no need to paint me as one just because I'm not vehemently decrying their evils at this moment.
    He answered the door at 1:30 in the morning. To some people that's a crazy time of day to be knocking on someone's door. I almost feel that you are playing devil's advocate, to illustrate that people should not answer the door with a gun, and yeah at 2 in the afternoon perhaps it would be a bit paranoid to do so, but in a country where people have a right to bear arms, I don't think it's that crazy for someone to answer the door with a gun at 1:30 AM, especially when they DON'T KNOW it's the police, because they're plain clothes.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    I'm sorry, I'm with @phobik and @Randomnity on this. I seriously don't get the whole gun thing in America. But honestly, this sort of shit makes me glad I don't.
    It never fails to amaze me how much I agree with Europeans, despite being raised in the U.S., this happens other places, too, about other topics.

    To me this signifies that I have more big picture thinking that some people, that they can't see what the fuck is wrong with this country. Maybe they're bad at history, geography, social studies?

    I can't fathom it.

  10. #60
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    He answered the door at 1:30 in the morning. To some people that's a crazy time of day to be knocking on someone's door. I almost feel that you are playing devil's advocate, to illustrate that people should not answer the door with a gun, and yeah at 2 in the afternoon perhaps it would be a bit paranoid to do so, but in a country where people have a right to bear arms, I don't think it's that crazy for someone to answer the door with a gun at 1:30 AM, especially when they DON'T KNOW it's the police, because they're plain clothes.
    I guess I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit.

    I do think it's a bit crazy because I already realized that if they are cops, they might shoot.

    If I advised to not answer the door with a gun because there might be plain clothes police officers who might shoot you, and pointed to this same incident as evidence, would you disregard my advice just because it isn't an ideal scenario?

    Knowing how something works doesn't mean that I agree with it or support it or judge it in any way.

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