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  1. #21
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    I'm sorry, I'm with @phobik and @Randomnity on this. I seriously don't get the whole gun thing in America. But honestly, this sort of shit makes me glad I don't.
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  2. #22
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Not only do we have guns. We have spaceships too.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    Rights aren't the issue. It's that he excercised them in the most flawed manner possible. People can have rights, but they still need to be smart. The same could be said of some car accidents, where the two parties both did things right by the letter of the law (like neither one was speeding or running a light), yet they weren't in sync with each other's behavior. One could have been going a little too fast compared to the other (yet still under the speed limit) and hit the other.
    I don't disagree with you. I do agree that the man could have abated his death had he not answered the door with a gun pointed. Yet, I don't believe his unwise course of action should be brought into the issue of whether the police should be held responsible. Ultimately they are the ones who committed a crime, he just answered the door with a gun. I do not believe they are equally at fault. There are probably a lot of people where I live who might answer the door with a gun because they are afraid of violence. I would not say they are at fault for doing so, because that isn't really my place to judge their lives and I might not understand that fear. All in all, I wish there were stricter gun laws, so that situations like this wouldn't arise in the first place.

  4. #24
    Senior Member KDude's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    I don't disagree with you. I do agree that the man could have abated his death had he not answered the door with a gun pointed. Yet, I don't believe his unwise course of action should be brought into the issue of whether the police should be held responsible. Ultimately they are the ones who committed a crime, he just answered the door with a gun. I do not believe they are equally at fault. There are probably a lot of people where I live who might answer the door with a gun because they are afraid of violence. I would not say they are at fault for doing so, because that isn't really my place to judge their lives and I might not understand that fear. All in all, I wish there were stricter gun laws, so that situations like this wouldn't arise in the first place.
    If you can think of a good way to make the law account for things like this, have at it. I think it is as the article says. A bizarre incident. Shit happens.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    For anyone who hasn't heard all about it due to the Trayvon Martin case, the Stand Your Ground law in Florida has promoted gun culture to a ridiculous degree. If you research into it, you will find there are a lot of senseless deaths due to this law.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KDude View Post
    If you can think of a good way to make the law account for things like this, have at it. I think it is as the article says. A bizarre incident. Shit happens.
    I don't find it so bizarre. I would have to look into police regulations to see if there was any technical malpractice. But I'm not a lawyer. I simply feel uncomfortable waving off this man's death because he was answering the door with a gun.

  7. #27
    Member Musicallogic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    For anyone who hasn't heard all about it due to the Trayvon Martin case, the Stand Your Ground law in Florida has promoted gun culture to a ridiculous degree. If you research into it, you will find there are a lot of senseless deaths due to this law.
    The only thing the Stand Your Ground law does is remove the legal need to attempt a retreat before you defend yourself with deadly force. Your life must still be in imminent danger to use deadly force. The reason it was put in place was to protect those rightfully defending themselves against an armed attack. It is often confused with the so-called Castle Doctrine which generally means you can use deadly force if someone is on your property, uninvited, with the appearance of intending you harm in some way. Despite all the bluster on the news about the "Stand Your Ground" law, it probably doesn't apply in the Trayvon Martin case. I'm not defending Zimmerman, just pointing out some myths about self-defense laws.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    Yes, that is true. However, legally the man was not at fault because we do have a right to bare arms. Where I can see the point you are making about gun culture (it's obviously a problem down there in Florida) I do hesitate to say that the innocent man was at fault. Every action he took was his legal right, regardless of should or shouldn't. His actions would not have been a problem had the police done their job correctly. Police should be held responsible.
    I agree. In the article, the cops sound pretty cavalier about their right to kill a guy who wasn't doing anything wrong: "Yeah, you have a right to own a gun, but we have a right to blow you away if we feel threatened by it."

    I think the local cops need to review their procedures for apprehending bad guys late at night in an area populated by legal gun-owners.

  9. #29
    Senior Member durentu's Avatar
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    if police think my house is public property -> police is correct
    if police think my house is private property -> police is tresspassing

    since we are in a socialist country, the police is correct. "private homes" are public property
    "People often say that this or that person has not yet found himself. But the self is not something one finds; it is something one creates." - Thomas Szasz

  10. #30
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Could have been avoided, but this is what happens when people are too annoyed and big headed to do things properly.

    Opening any kind of door with a gun ready is a poor decision unless you plan to shoot something as it almost puts you at a disadvantage to whatever is on the other side of the door. This is why police open doors with backup. It's an aggressive action. If you think you might need the gun it's best to NOT open the door because that's just putting you closer to the 'threat'.

    Edit: or put it this way. If you think you need to protect yourself from a possible attacker, should letting them in be your first action? I think not. Opening the door is removing the one obstacle that might block them from you.

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