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    Default Richard Dawkins and national socialism?

    I've been reading the latest installment in writing from the author of The Armchair Economist, in this book he writes more about maths, economics and physics, the three things he describes as his passion but ranges across a lot of other topics he thinks these things illuminate such as God, religion and beliefs.

    He is a big fan of Dennett, Dawkins and the other so called "new" athiests, he mentions the book by Dawkins The God Delusion, which he thinks has some mistaken content re: Intelligent Design (he thinks that complexity may be an indication that there is no designer rather than definite indication of design, he uses some interesting points derived from both maths and physics, although some of the quantum mechanics and physics theories, such as multiverse or strings theories are as incredible to me as anything I've found in religion).

    Anyway, he summarises Dawkins's The Selfish Gene as follows, that individuals sacrificing themselves for their countrymen does not invalidate the premise of genetic selfishness because in sacrificing yourself you are ensuring that genes of a similar type are being transmitted by survivors.

    Now perhaps this is a broader point and Dawkins could have been meaning that if you sacrifice yourself for a fellow human being you are perpetuating the species and/but still the means or vehicle for genes.

    However, I read it as meaning that national identity or solidarity is possible on the premise of selfish genes but other sorts invalid, perhaps there is a problem in so far as I am not dealing with the material directly but this just sounds to me like national socialism or so called "ethnical socialism".

    Given that Dawkins was involved in a further book called "What's your dangerous idea?" in which some of the principle science researchers responsible for discovering DNA posited that ethnicity precludes equality are there some very unsavoury ideas making a come back in elite circles?

    So far as political trends go I think a world in which political choice was reduced to neo-liberal capitalism or some sort of national racist political persuasion would be really shit.

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    I would believe this. Our "monkey brain" allows us to see about 150 people at a time as fully human, with complete personalities, etc. which is why you don't love a stranger as much as a friend or neighbor, unless you are simply being kind and empathetic.

    It's entirely sensible from a biological standpoint to protect one's own "tribe." A person could suggest that this tribe could be composed of people with diverse DNA, that who we consider our tribe is about socialization, language, culture, familiarity, etc.

    However, some people argue that diversity actually causes insecurity, makes people feel less safe, gives them less of a sense of solidarity, and actually makes people LESS LIKELY to help their fellow man, and LESS LIKELY to trust those people to help him. Which may be why the U.S. is so backward in terms of wanting social safety nets in comparison to European or Asian countries which are more ethnically homogenous.

    Also, preferring one's own "tribe" doesn't necessary mean HATING others, so there's no need for it to go to such lengths that other tribes are punished, killed, tormented, etc. just because one biologically prefers one's own tribe.

    This is a concept I'm quite familiar with, and I do believe it has its roots in biology, just like religion. Even liberal race and gender professors will teach you that people are born with an instinct to prefer their own in group, however, many liberals believed we can be "socialized" out of it, even though even babies and small children do recognize race (despite what people want to believe otherwise) ...they still can be taught not to hate the out group.

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    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    @Marmie Dearest


    Meh.


    Then there was Jesus who taught (or tried to, does it take someone(s) to learn to have taught something?), if we may extrapolate that intention from Mark 3:34-35: "...Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."


    Perhaps Jesus saw that tribes did more alienation than reconciliation of man. Perhaps He was trying to teach us to reach beyond an animalistic kinsmanship and embrace a more Godly inclusiveness. (This would also have been a bonus biologically as tribes throughout history have used precautions to try to keep mates as genetically distant as possible).
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    @Marmie Dearest


    Meh.


    Then there was Jesus who taught (or tried to, does it take someone(s) to learn to have taught something?), if we may extrapolate that intention from Mark 3:34-35: "...Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."


    Perhaps Jesus saw that tribes did more alienation than reconciliation of man. Perhaps He was trying to teach us to reach beyond an animalistic kinsmanship and embrace a more Godly inclusiveness. (This would also have been a bonus biologically as tribes throughout history have used precautions to try to keep mates as genetically distant as possible).
    Actually there's no basis for people being "as genetically different as possible" while some mix-raced people are beautiful, others are not, and it can water down certain traits which are both positive and negative, creating both good and bad mutations.

    Another point for this is women being on the pill picking bad mates, because women who are not on synthetic hormones will pick mates based on scent.

    "The women did not choose scents of men with genes totally similar to their own, or totally dissimilar to their own." ...that's because although we shouldn't marry family, there's no indication being as dissimilar as possible is necessarily advantageous, either.

    "Everybody always says different is better, well you get different, different, different, and then it becomes a point where it's no longer better."

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    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    I didn't mean to imply being as different as possible is better. I think that humans intrinsically know on some primal (hormonal?) level (as with women picking mates in your example) when they need to enhance the gene pool with some variety. I was resounding strongly to your implication that somehow staying intratribal interaction was somehow superior to intertribal interaction. I guess it just depends on what you are talking about, doesn't it? Biologically and socially the lines are rather grey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I didn't mean to imply being as different as possible is better. I think that humans intrinsically know on some primal (hormonal?) level (as with women picking mates in your example) when they need to enhance the gene pool with some variety. I was resounding strongly to your implication that somehow staying intratribal interaction was somehow superior to intertribal interaction. I guess it just depends on what you are talking about, doesn't it? Biologically and socially the lines are rather grey.
    What this could imply, though, is that people may want to interbreed amongst subraces but not necessarily with a completely different race from a purely biological standpoint.

    Social conditioning in this matter could be more easily achieved if you have large numbers of women with synthetic hormones.

    I'm not arguing against miscegenation, but I am arguing that there appears to have been a social agenda to make people believe that outbreeding is somehow preferable to inbreeding, and both are bad for different reasons.

    Also the reasons why people choose mates are social as well as biological, of course.

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    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    What this could imply, though, is that people may want to interbreed amongst subraces but not necessarily with a completely different race from a purely biological standpoint.
    I personally agree with this, and it seems to be the general way people prefer.


    Social conditioning in this matter could be more easily achieved if you have large numbers of women with synthetic hormones.

    I'm not arguing against miscegenation, but I am arguing that there appears to have been a social agenda to make people believe that outbreeding is somehow preferable to inbreeding, and both are bad for different reasons.
    I'm thinking about tribes separated by days' travel, but still within a certain region. They'd be racially similar, but genetically different enough to enhance procreation (better word if you got it), etc.

    Races would likely be separated by more demarcated geographical barriers, making intermixing very rare.


    If you wiki inbreeding you will find all sorts of links talking about how even the most primitive cultures had/have intricate mechanisms in place, (likely) to prevent too much homogeneity in the gene pool, but possible for other reasons as well that are more difficult to study.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I personally agree with this, and it seems to be the general way people prefer.




    I'm thinking about tribes separated by days' travel, but still within a certain region. They'd be racially similar, but genetically different enough to enhance procreation (better word if you got it), etc.
    Yes, this makes sense. For example I've wondered what makes me attracted to Balto-Slavs for example, but I am Germanic, and possibly more German than I realize because I've been told by more than one person - both from countries outside of the U.S., one from South America and the other from a former Soviet state - that I am very German looking (not the blonde Germans up North, obviously)...and I wonder how much of this is in my genes, as the Balto-Slavs begin border to the East in that region of Europe.

    Of course people can develop fetishes for social reasons, though, but in my case this is a huge mystery. My sister, whose father's side of the family (her father is my mother's second husband) is attracted to men of Arabic descent, her first husband was from Saudi Arabia, but interestingly she has some relatively small amount of Syrian in her background on her paternal line!

    However, she was never raised around Arabic men at all, and I personally have no attraction to these men, despite being her half-sister, sharing a mother.

    So I find this kind of stuff truly fascinating,

    Races would likely be separated by more demarcated geographical barriers, making intermixing very rare.


    If you wiki inbreeding you will find all sorts of links talking about how even the most primitive cultures had/have intricate mechanisms in place, (likely) to prevent too much homogeneity in the gene pool, but possible for other reasons as well that are more difficult to study.
    Well I wonder if some of the social behavior that we perceive as being hostile is a primitive way of preventing outbreeding in large numbers.

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