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  1. #91
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I dunno, my sis came back from living in Toronto with this new skill to be hyper careful about what she says about Canada. I don't see much of a difference, we're all sensitive when it comes others criticising the places that we're identified with. And I betcha there's more than couple towns that have people who would be really hostile to somebody who had a bad word for their country.
    This interests me, I once made fun of someone I know when they were being fiercely loyal about their home village, this place is very small but it has some history about a winning grey hound and an olympian runner from long ago, and he got furious more than once, on one occasion properly mad, couldnt believe it as we were all in the company of seniors and it was one of those situations were being thin skinned and prone to anger would really not be to his credit.

    He's kept that personal meme going and texts me out of the blue if there's stuff relating to his town on TV or the radio, I mean to me that's pretty random, although all in all it made me reflect upon the fact that I dont feel that way about any place, not country, not countrymen, not town, not city, I dont like hearing prejudice or racism which is anti-Irish or north vs. south but in the main that's because I dont like hearing prejudice or racism of any sort.

    I was a sort of stereotypical patriot, bigotted or sectarian even, once, although when I think about it that was a response to others adopting bigotted identities of their own when we were growing up, it was alienating and when they more or less told me "this is what you are and we hate it" I began to think, well, maybe that is what I am and what is good about it? Although it didnt last because I out grew it I guess.

    I think of myself less as affiliated to anything or anyplace now and more as myself. If I hear people hating on what they believe I am or some place or some one I'm just inclined to think they are revealing a lot about themselves rather than whatever it is they are ragging on, ie they have a need to rag, possibly a greater need of whatever is the object of their rag than whoever or whatever that object may be has of them.

    When I see groups, whoever they are, banding together to let fly with the "we're no. 1" thing my first suspiscion is they dont believe it, they have one hell of a need to believe it but they know themselves, it aint true, its never been true, if it was true it'd go without saying. It just makes me think, that is so, so, so weak.

  2. #92
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    This interests me, I once made fun of someone I know when they were being fiercely loyal about their home village, this place is very small but it has some history about a winning grey hound and an olympian runner from long ago, and he got furious more than once, on one occasion properly mad, couldnt believe it as we were all in the company of seniors and it was one of those situations were being thin skinned and prone to anger would really not be to his credit.

    He's kept that personal meme going and texts me out of the blue if there's stuff relating to his town on TV or the radio, I mean to me that's pretty random, although all in all it made me reflect upon the fact that I dont feel that way about any place, not country, not countrymen, not town, not city, I dont like hearing prejudice or racism which is anti-Irish or north vs. south but in the main that's because I dont like hearing prejudice or racism of any sort.

    I was a sort of stereotypical patriot, bigotted or sectarian even, once, although when I think about it that was a response to others adopting bigotted identities of their own when we were growing up, it was alienating and when they more or less told me "this is what you are and we hate it" I began to think, well, maybe that is what I am and what is good about it? Although it didnt last because I out grew it I guess.

    I think of myself less as affiliated to anything or anyplace now and more as myself. If I hear people hating on what they believe I am or some place or some one I'm just inclined to think they are revealing a lot about themselves rather than whatever it is they are ragging on, ie they have a need to rag, possibly a greater need of whatever is the object of their rag than whoever or whatever that object may be has of them.

    When I see groups, whoever they are, banding together to let fly with the "we're no. 1" thing my first suspiscion is they dont believe it, they have one hell of a need to believe it but they know themselves, it aint true, its never been true, if it was true it'd go without saying. It just makes me think, that is so, so, so weak.
    I also have trouble identifying with anything other than myself as an individual.

    But blind 'patriotism' is just completely natural human behaviour. Some of us have grown out of it, but there will never be a time when everyone will have grown out of it. I know American style patriotism has a style that's easily identified, but that's because we export it, sell it wholesale through the media industry. I really can't be upset that other people are tired of seeing it.

    But, if somebody in another country tells me that they don't have their own style of national superiority, I'm not buying it. As long as there are people living in a country, there will be somebody to tell you that they're the best or at least feel like they need to defend their country's identity, and are willing to take you to task for it. Likely these are the same people who'll also be pissed off you don't like their football team, their choice of car, literature, etc.

  3. #93
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I also have trouble identifying with anything other than myself as an individual.

    But blind 'patriotism' is just completely natural human behaviour. Some of us have grown out of it, but there will never be a time when everyone will have grown out of it. I know American style patriotism has a style that's easily identified, but that's because we export it, sell it wholesale through the media industry. I really can't be upset that other people are tired of seeing it.

    But, if somebody in another country tells me that they don't have their own style of national superiority, I'm not buying it. As long as there are people living in a country, there will be somebody to tell you that they're the best or at least feel like they need to defend their country's identity, and are willing to take you to task for it. Likely these are the same people who'll also be pissed off you don't like their football team, their choice of car, literature, etc.
    There's probably truth in what you say, I dont like that in-group and out-group reasoning and never have, from I was in kinder garden and could identify it going on and could see people banding together sometimes using the exclusion of someone else to do so. I remember when someone first asked me if I didnt like someone and told me I could be their friend if I didnt like them, I told them I didnt know this other person and therefore couldnt say if I didnt like then, then they told me they didnt like me and the whole thing seemed pretty damn irrational to me. It has ever since.

    Only now and again, like I've said, have I fallen into the trap of going along with something like that, same could be said for chasing women and changing my behaviour because they flattered me or something, I attribute all that to swerves in body chemistry because a lot of it happened in my teens and twenties. I'm not sure I'd say its natural because its commonplace but I know what you're getting at.

  4. #94
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I dunno, my sis came back from living in Toronto with this new skill to be hyper careful about what she says about Canada. I don't see much of a difference, we're all sensitive when it comes others criticising the places that we're identified with. And I betcha there's more than couple towns that have people who would be really hostile to somebody who had a bad word for their country.
    Are you suggesting a person shouldn't be careful and respectful when they visit another country or city with what they say?

    When I lived in America, it would have been patently foolish to verbally perpetuate what I KNOW to be primarily stereotypes of Americans.

    Yet, you would perhaps be surprised at how many people I met in America who continually communicated stereotypes about Canada to me. Even thinking they're being so funny!

    So, it would be fair to say that yes, I do and have gotten annoyed at certain uneducated criticism of Canada. (See List #3.)

    Our sense of patriotism however is different, as @Randomnity has pointed out.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  5. #95
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Are you suggesting a person shouldn't be careful and respectful when they visit another country or city with what they say?

    When I lived in America, it would have been patently foolish to verbally perpetuate what I KNOW to be primarily stereotypes of Americans.

    Yet, you would perhaps be surprised at how many people I met in America who continually communicated stereotypes about Canada to me.

    It would be fair to say that yes, I do and have gotten annoyed at certain uneducated criticism of Canada. (See List #3.)

    Our sense of patriotism however is different, as @Randomnity has pointed out.
    I was responding to what I was quoting..

    Most people I know here like, even love, Canada. I don't plan to ever leave this country. But I don't know anyone who gets righteously offended if someone criticizes something about Canada. You'll see disagreement, even heated argument, but not offense that they dared say anything bad about the country. That's the attitude that I find curious.
    I don't find this behaviour any different that how Americans act, with exceptions. Exceptions I believe that exist everywhere.

  6. #96
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I don't find this behaviour any different that how Americans act, with exceptions. Exceptions I believe that exist everywhere.
    How so? Explain.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  7. #97
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Lists like these make me cautiously optimistic, because I'd love to think there are places that aren't like this.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #98
    On a mission Usehername's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I dunno, my sis came back from living in Toronto with this new skill to be hyper careful about what she says about Canada. I don't see much of a difference, we're all sensitive when it comes others criticising the places that we're identified with. And I betcha there's more than couple towns that have people who would be really hostile to somebody who had a bad word for their country.
    Yes to the patriotism being interalized, but a clear no to the bolded behaviour--you're projecting a kind of boldness and assertiveness onto the Canadian national identity that doesn't exist like it does in Germany or the USA. Because the primary Canadian identity is to either pretend to respect, or for some, genuinely respect, alternative ways of being, you won't find that bold assertiveness except in Justin Bieber, who moved to the USA when he was a young teen and grew up in a blended culture. You will find Canadians holding grudges against people who diss their national identity, Canadians who have an inferiority complex and unconsciously reframe a lot of things in a ways that points to the root of national pride, but you won't find that bold patriotism. We're too young a country to have our own identity that exists strong enough to not need to push off of the USA. We see Americans as hilariously patriotic, and we say, "we're more grounded and respecting of others." We're still in our awkward adolescent years where we're sure we're not going to be as ridiculous as the generation before us.

    It would in fact be anti-Canadian to be upset at someone burning the Maple Leaf flag, for example. Patriotism exists, absolutely, but the identity is in our patience and understanding, even if that's a faked practice rather than genuine for many citizens.
    *You don't have a soul. You are a Soul. You have a body.
    *Faith is the art of holding on to things your reason once accepted, despite your changing moods.
    C.S. Lewis

  9. #99
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Overall, the article comes across the same as screeds by anti-suburbanites* who don't like suburban living, can't understand why anyone would, and concludes that people who say they're happy in the suburbs are deluded.

    *Not to be confused with people who simply prefer urban or rural lifestyles.

  10. #100
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    How so? Explain.
    Hooligans, small minded people, people with a chip on their shoulders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Usehername View Post
    Yes to the patriotism being interalized, but a clear no to the bolded behaviour--you're projecting a kind of boldness and assertiveness onto the Canadian national identity that doesn't exist like it does in Germany or the USA. Because the primary Canadian identity is to either pretend to respect, or for some, genuinely respect, alternative ways of being, you won't find that bold assertiveness except in Justin Bieber, who moved to the USA when he was a young teen and grew up in a blended culture. You will find Canadians holding grudges against people who diss their national identity, Canadians who have an inferiority complex and unconsciously reframe a lot of things in a ways that points to the root of national pride, but you won't find that bold patriotism. We're too young a country to have our own identity that exists strong enough to not need to push off of the USA. We see Americans as hilariously patriotic, and we say, "we're more grounded and respecting of others." We're still in our awkward adolescent years where we're sure we're not going to be as ridiculous as the generation before us.

    It would in fact be anti-Canadian to be upset at someone burning the Maple Leaf flag, for example. Patriotism exists, absolutely, but the identity is in our patience and understanding, even if that's a faked practice rather than genuine for many citizens.
    I was really just talking about the general idea of being sensitive about what other people say about your country. Being reactive, defensive.. tribal. Patriotism is a different subject, though related.

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