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  1. #41
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well some people would argue that fascism is wonderful, I occasionally hang out on a forum where there are fascists, and they are proud of being fascists - in that sense it's primarily for preservation of their own preferred culture.

    And you may disagree with other aspects of fascism but agree with their fiscal approach. I don't think MP agrees with their fiscal approach, nor do I.

    But even making the argument "fascism is bad" is a matter of opinion, of course.
    By that standard I'm fascist. In fact by that standard a lot of people are. The gay rights lobby. The animal rights lobby/PETA. The Christian Coalition and The Zapatistas.

  2. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    There is also the Poisoning the Well fallacy to take into account.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    That's the logical fallacy nocapzy was making about post-Soviet literacy in Eastern Europe and Central Asia (as well as Cuba).

    "Communists are bad, stupid jerks, therefore clearly if anything remotely good came out of what they did, the numbers must be fudged."
    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    But it can also be said about the OP. Which part of Fascist ideology is deplorable? Is it the economic model? Possibly, but not nearly as universally as Fascism's other aspects, right? So is the OP question framing this in the right context, or is it just associated with "Fascism, therefore bad?"
    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    But it can also be said about the OP. Which part of Fascist ideology is deplorable? Is it the economic model? Possibly, but not nearly as universally as Fascism's other aspects, right? So is the OP question framing this in the right context, or is it just associated with "Fascism, therefore bad?"
    I'm in agreement with Cimarron here. I'm not saying I like the way the US economy is run, but the OP follows the pattern of poisoning the well.

    Child Poverty in the USA
    Note also, the stats about the U.S. having "the second highest child poverty rate of developed nations" comes from here (this is the source most other sources stating this statistics cite):
    http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/660

    The definition of poverty that gives the statistic that the US is second worst is using the relative poverty definition (IOW, less than 50% median income). The debate over this definition of poverty has come up many times. In the report, both relative poverty statistics and "deprivation" poverty statistics are given (though I didn't find US data listed for deprivation). There is a wealth of information in that report, including before tax and after tax poverty(before tax and transfer Canada and the US have the same relative poverty rates, but Canada brings that percentage down a lot after tax), comparisons of general poverty and child poverty, money put aside for poverty reduction.

    The big problem is that most people who would diminish the significance of income inequality would also deny the use of relative poverty as a legitimate measure of poverty. Using relative child poverty in an attempt to convince someone who doesn't see a problem with income inequality is a sophisticated form of begging the question.

    A Quarter of Americans are without Health Insurance?
    Again, this statistic is thrown around a lot. I believe that it comes from this report:
    http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publ...Insurance.aspx
    Look at exhibit 1 in the charts (you can read the more detailed account in the report). Note the difference. The actual report says that about 1 in 4 Americans had gaps in health insurance over the course of the year before the survey. This is not a good thing, especially when we consider about 57% of those with gaps had gaps of 2+ years. But this is still different from saying that a quarter of Americans are/were without health insurance.

    Children in the U.S are poorly educated and suck at Reading, Math and Science?
    This sort of thing has been stated since I was in middle school. The OECD Programme for International Student Assessment puts out a report every few years. The 2009 version is here:
    http://www.oecd.org/document/61/0,37..._1_1_1,00.html

    Download volume I and repeatedly search for the word "rank". You will find that the USA is statistically about average when compared to OECD in reading and science. This is obviously not what we would like, but not quite as gloomy a picture as people often portray. In mathematics, the US students do worse than the OECD average in a statistically significant sense. This is perhaps gloomy.

    PISA also has a series of videos and other reports regarding what countries are doing to improve education.
    http://www.oecd.org/document/7/0,374..._1_1_1,00.html
    This could brings up some interesting discussions about measuring and incentivizing better education.

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  3. #43
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I'm in agreement with Cimarron here. I'm not saying I like the way the US economy is run, but the OP follows the pattern of poisoning the well.
    Yes, but what if it is more a less the same as the economic approach used by fascists? Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. I don't want to avoid the idea just because fascism is a bad word.

    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Child Poverty in the USA
    Note also, the stats about the U.S. having "the second highest child poverty rate of developed nations" comes from here (this is the source most other sources stating this statistics cite):
    http://www.unicef-irc.org/publications/660

    The definition of poverty that gives the statistic that the US is second worst is using the relative poverty definition (IOW, less than 50% median income). The debate over this definition of poverty has come up many times. In the report, both relative poverty statistics and "deprivation" poverty statistics are given (though I didn't find US data listed for deprivation). There is a wealth of information in that report, including before tax and after tax poverty(before tax and transfer Canada and the US have the same relative poverty rates, but Canada brings that percentage down a lot after tax), comparisons of general poverty and child poverty, money put aside for poverty reduction.

    The big problem is that most people who would diminish the significance of income inequality would also deny the use of relative poverty as a legitimate measure of poverty. Using relative child poverty in an attempt to convince someone who doesn't see a problem with income inequality is a sophisticated form of begging the question.

    A Quarter of Americans are without Health Insurance?
    Again, this statistic is thrown around a lot. I believe that it comes from this report:
    http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publ...Insurance.aspx
    Look at exhibit 1 in the charts (you can read the more detailed account in the report). Note the difference. The actual report says that about 1 in 4 Americans had gaps in health insurance over the course of the year before the survey. This is not a good thing, especially when we consider about 57% of those with gaps had gaps of 2+ years. But this is still different from saying that a quarter of Americans are/were without health insurance.

    Children in the U.S are poorly educated and suck at Reading, Math and Science?
    This sort of thing has been stated since I was in middle school. The OECD Programme for International Student Assessment puts out a report every few years. The 2009 version is here:
    http://www.oecd.org/document/61/0,37..._1_1_1,00.html

    Download volume I and repeatedly search for the word "rank". You will find that the USA is statistically about average when compared to OECD in reading and science. This is obviously not what we would like, but not quite as gloomy a picture as people often portray. In mathematics, the US students do worse than the OECD average in a statistically significant sense. This is perhaps gloomy.

    PISA also has a series of videos and other reports regarding what countries are doing to improve education.
    http://www.oecd.org/document/7/0,374..._1_1_1,00.html
    This could brings up some interesting discussions about measuring and incentivizing better education.
    This is all interesting, but I'm not entirely certain what it has to do with fascism. Or is it in response to things said by other posters in this thread?
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  4. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes, but what if it is more a less the same as the economic approach used by fascists? Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. I don't want to avoid the idea just because fascism is a bad word.
    You can call a spade a spade or a device used to murder people and dig their graves. A spade meets all the criteria needed for such a device. But equating the two ideas would be disingenuous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    This is all interesting, but I'm not entirely certain what it has to do with fascism. Or is it in response to things said by other posters in this thread?
    Well, yes. There were significant portions of the thread where people were comparing the U.S. to third world nations.
    There was also this specific post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-Ne...7641338349787/

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/47104777...gestudy-finds/

    http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-18563_162-6866663.html

    The last link is about the failure of American public schools. Did you know that the literacy rate is higher in Russia?
    Although I consider income disparity to be bad, I don't think as many children in the US face starvation, and illiteracy as in many third world countries. Though starving children everywhere is an issue. I am sponsoring one in the US.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._literacy_rate
    It is interesting that many in the former soviet union have such high literacy rates despite economic troubles and the lack of may freedoms, but we are comparing 99% (a literacy rate the US shares with Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Japan,...) to 99.5% for Russia.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
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    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  5. #45
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Yes, but what if it is more a less the same as the economic approach used by fascists? Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade. I don't want to avoid the idea just because fascism is a bad word.



    This is all interesting, but I'm not entirely certain what it has to do with fascism. Or is it in response to things said by other posters in this thread?
    I dont know that it can be called fascist, like I said I'm not sure there is a clear fascist economic model, even in the two places I can think of there being something approaching an economic policy (the philosophy of fascism in Mussolini's sense or Hitler's "second book") its vague, championing things like autarky or self-sufficiency and arms production.

    I'm not sure what the second point is about either, although its possible that fascists would favour those things, like child poverty, because, in theory or in opinion, most of them advocated a harsh existence as preventing anyone becoming "soft" and they contrasted comfort with risk taking or heroically daring do. Man, there is so much of it which seems like romanticism's vomit.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    You can call a spade a spade or a device used to murder people and dig their graves. A spade meets all the criteria needed for such a device. But equating the two ideas would be disingenuous.



    Well, yes. There were significant portions of the thread where people were comparing the U.S. to third world nations.
    There was also this specific post:


    Although I consider income disparity to be bad, I don't think as many children in the US face starvation, and illiteracy as in many third world countries. Though starving children everywhere is an issue. I am sponsoring one in the US.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of..._literacy_rate
    It is interesting that many in the former soviet union have such high literacy rates despite economic troubles and the lack of may freedoms, but we are comparing 99% (a literacy rate the US shares with Canada, Finland, France, Germany, Japan,...) to 99.5% for Russia.
    Literacy and literature are two things I associate with Russia to be honest, whether the scourge was Tsar or commissar it seems they could really produce some fine books. With many imitators. Its one of the few reasons I dont totally hate Russia. Some of their women are also babes.

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