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  1. #31
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    ...OP....
    There is also the Poisoning the Well fallacy to take into account.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    There is also the Poisoning the Well fallacy to take into account.
    That's the logical fallacy nocapzy was making about post-Soviet literacy in Eastern Europe and Central Asia (as well as Cuba).

    "Communists are bad, stupid jerks, therefore clearly if anything remotely good came out of what they did, the numbers must be fudged."

  3. #33
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    But it can also be said about the OP. Which part of Fascist ideology is deplorable? Is it the economic model? Possibly, but not nearly as universally as Fascism's other aspects, right? So is the OP question framing this in the right context, or is it just associated with "Fascism, therefore bad?"
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    But it can also be said about the OP. Which part of Fascist ideology is deplorable? Is it the economic model? Possibly, but not nearly as universally as Fascism's other aspects, right? So is the OP question framing this in the right context, or is it just associated with "Fascism, therefore bad?"
    Well some people would argue that fascism is wonderful, I occasionally hang out on a forum where there are fascists, and they are proud of being fascists - in that sense it's primarily for preservation of their own preferred culture.

    And you may disagree with other aspects of fascism but agree with their fiscal approach. I don't think MP agrees with their fiscal approach, nor do I.

    But even making the argument "fascism is bad" is a matter of opinion, of course.

  5. #35
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    But it can also be said about the OP. Which part of Fascist ideology is deplorable? Is it the economic model? Possibly, but not nearly as universally as Fascism's other aspects, right? So is the OP question framing this in the right context, or is it just associated with "Fascism, therefore bad?"
    As it happens, I didn't say any part of it was deplorable in the OP. My opinion is that the economic model of fascism is not desirable, but I didn't enter it in there because that wasn't really the point. First, we ought to establish whether or not it is.
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  6. #36
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    First, we ought to establish whether or not it is.
    Oh okay. It's interesting, I assumed most people would do the opposite, because the point of a thread like this in the Politics section would more likely be a moral judgment about the U.S. economic system. So first assume Fascist economics are bad, then prove the U.S. has such an economy. But...huh.

    Actually, we still can judge it. Just thought "fascism" was enough of a scare word to jump to the "bad" assumption.
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cimarron View Post
    Oh okay. It's interesting, I assumed most people would do the opposite, because the point of a thread like this in the Politics section would more likely be a moral judgment about the U.S. economic system. So first assume Fascist economics are bad, then prove the U.S. has such an economy. But...huh.
    So prove that fascist economics aren't bad.

    I'm waiting.

  8. #38
    IRL is not real Cimarron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    So prove that fascist economics aren't bad.

    I'm waiting.
    ...I see. My point was to say, "What is the OP really trying to accomplish by creating this thread?"

    Anyway, well, I believe that economic systems are generally more morally ambiguous than social policy-systems, across the board, because social policy-systems are more relatable on a personal level. Economics are more a jumble of numbers and calculators. So I think it's a lot less controversial to say, for example, "Private corporations should serve the interests of the state," than to say, "There should be laws against certain races of people owning property or being citizens." Not necessarily less morally wrong, but harder to prove or associate with being morally wrong.

    (You might be "surprised" to learn that I never took much economics coursework in school, nor politics, nor sociology, etc. )
    You can't spell "justice" without ISTJ.

  9. #39
    resonance entropie's Avatar
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    Well you fueled the economy by building a lot of tanks and the Autobahn thats what fascists do !

    Jokes, aside I dont believe that american politics is fascist. The greater problem is that a lot of things are misused or get mixed up. When I alone watch american news I feel manipulated 24/7 cause they always overplay facts or present them wrongly for a great viewer impact. It's like anger management issues, when you never can look at a thing objectively but immediantly overplay stuff and want to kill everybody afterwards. Somehow it's like the charme of kids but sometimes you are afraid cause those kids have the biggest nuclear arsenal on the World.

    I personally like that childish charme cause it has of all nations brought the most good things on Earth. All former political or societal attitudes we had on the World, always led to World Wars or other bad things; but such a long time of peace, which sure aint perfect, we never had. let alone the morales which were transferred thru Hollywood throughout the world have changed people a lot and you can be proud of that.

    The only thing that is no graspable to me as a foreigner is that instability or volatility. I mean the problems are laied out for us: the rich have too much power, banks are playing poker with the World today and poverty and social injustice is marching quickly towards our capitals. Those are concrete problems we all should engage in. Then tho right wing politicans emerge and talk about "closing off the borders" so foreign countries cant harm America (and that tho the financial crisis was homemade). Or a welfare system is invented what doesnt work as a welfare system but is just a hidden agenda to draw more taxpayers money, in times were the state is so bankrupt that it cant afford nothing, especially not welfare...

    the real problems, which is the plutocracy, nobody fights against. I recently read that of the 180 billion euro which were given to Greece, 2% went to the country itself and the rest was used to buy out shareholders of Greece. I mean thats a bad joke... You cant even no more let the banks go bankrupt like a normal company cause they blackmail you by saying, if you let go of us, we let go of our small customers and leave millions of people ripped of their money.

    Money should be again earned with work and not with money. As long as we dont get that problem under control, political attitudes are pretty much pointless. One just needs to be careful that the emerging right, left or religious wingers in the wake of trouble dont take over.
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  10. #40
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well what is ironic about this is that many of the poor in the U.S. are working poor. There are even middle class people without health insurance. But they didn't "earn" it?

    I have a very hard time seeing the logic in this, though I do comprehend people seeing absolute poverty as absolute, if we become even more to the right fiscally, we WILL have more absolute poverty - the modest social programs are really all we have from actually making this country look like a developing nation which most Americans would view as inferior. We will have old-fashioned absolute poverty if these social programs are cut. America will have dirt poor and fabulous wealth, so then we can join the ranks of such stellar, enviable nations as Mexico, where all the citizens seem to want to stay!

    And that's why I say we border on the third world. Some people don't care, they'll be happy with the economic disparity, and it will be fine for them at first, but in the long run it would lead to more pollution and crime and ignorance and there goes our country. Say farewell to the American dream, it was all a big Hollywood set, anyway.

    I bring up Russia a lot because I find it to be a country that the U.S. continues to see itself as up against, despite the end of the Cold War, people still called Obama a "communist" when he was running for president, like these people have no concept of there anything but there being these black-and-white salt 'n pepper shaker "sides" in the big world chess game.

    Also, because the entire concept of Objectivism was dreamed up by a crazy Russian woman.

    Oh, world stage, you so funny.
    Talking up the communist threat or red menace could as easily be about rivalry with China who I think the US sees as their real rival at the moment, there's more antagonism between the UK and Russia but that is very historical and predates and postdates communism.

    The latest bit of rivalry between China and the US has been the extent to which the Chinese have engaged in industrial esponiage, ripping of consoles, other consumer durables which the corporations thought wouldnt be a concern when they moved to take advantage of cheap labour force costs. Also the US had the spec of some cutting edge fighter plane technology ripped off and that was a real surprise to them. Not to me, the triumph of capitalist values after all.

    The public choice school of economics did research into the US and found that the possibility of free loading concerned people more than prosperity, its a trade off, the countries in which tax and spend is popular DO experience free loading, they dont care about it as much, its also less prevailent would you believe.

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