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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moxiest View Post
    This is really twisted.

    Yes, the right is against welfare. It is believed by Christians, that if a man does not work, neither should he eat. (seems pretty logical to me, as food/provisions don't come from nowhere)

    There is, however, in christianity, a place for the poor and needy. If you look in the old testament, there was a portion of fields left for aliens, poor, and widows to harvest from. There also was a whole branch of the church devoted to taking care of widows in the New Testament... so I am not sure where you are getting this false information.

    The Old Deluder Satan Act was one of the first laws passed in this country dealing with education... encacted by those "right wing" christians... who... don't want anyone to be educated... what? Harvard was started by a christian, to train christians in theology (congregationalist/unitarian sect of protestantism). Same is true of Yale, it was originally a school for clergymen. Princeton has strong presbytarian ties, and Dartmouth was founded by a congregationalist leader named Eleazar Wheelock. The University of Pennsylvania was founded by Benjamin Franklin, a deist with calvinist influences. That's at least 5 of the 8 Ivy League schools. It isn't true that christians are uneducated, or that they do not want people to be educated. As I just stated, (at least) 5 of our nations 8 Ivy League Schools were founded by christians.

    And, since we are talking about Christians as being the only "stupid" people who belive abortion is wrong, did you know the ancient Assyrians would actually impale a woman for having committed an abortion?
    We're speaking of absurd cognitive dissonance in current social trends which aren't very Christ-like, not about your personal belief system.

    If you're a Christian with a coherent doctrine, good for you, but these coherent Christians tend to be either moderate, independent, or liberal, as there is really nothing Christian about corporatism, condemning the poor, and preaching a "prosperity gospel" which is a complete and utter fabrication of the United States and the cultures it has influenced.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post

    My point is that depending upon the branch of Christianity there is no contradiction between professing capitalism is great, that Adam Smith's invisible hand of the market place IS in fact the divine plan/hand of God, and attacking abortion and homosexuality.
    Yes there's absolutely no stupidity in claiming God has blessed America as the wealthiest nation in the world, which has the second largest number of impoverished children in the world, only second to Romania.

    Because God gets even by punishing children. Amen.

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    In fact, while we're at it, let's make abortion illegal so we can be NUMBER ONE in numbers of poor children in the developed world. Because it's godly to want children to be born so we can watch them suffer while we go buy another car and eat some filet mignon.

    Makes perfect sense! Why didn't I see it before?

  4. #24
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes there's absolutely no stupidity in claiming God has blessed America as the wealthiest nation in the world, which has the second largest number of impoverished children in the world, only second to Romania.

    Because God gets even by punishing children. Amen.
    The versions of Christianity which favour theories of predestination of an elect few to paradise are pretty elitist Marmie, they wouldnt be embarrassed by the poverty of anyone, man, women or child.

    That's just calvinism though, that's before you even get into the harsher or weird realms of so called theonomics, that's the biblical literalists ideas about economies, including the story of the talents was actually about investment strategy etc.

    Bizarre. Personally I've always thought that its odd that biblical literalists succeed in the sumersaults of logic necessary not to find themselves in the same camp as liberation theologians or the author of communism in the bible, cant remember his name, or even medieval europe in which loans and banking were outlawed as usury.

    There's a great novelisation of how a medieval barony turning capitalist manages to circumvent the religious laws of the time in the novel Jack Faust (itself a really amazing piece of science fiction reworking of the Dr Faustus myth, although the anti-semitism towards the end is hard to read, even if the overall narrative of the devils tempting Faust to turn away from love and life towards death and destruction is great). The rules were real enough and the Borges totally attacked the Jews for usury the most when they had worked out a way to enter the market as traders themselves first.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    In fact, while we're at it, let's make abortion illegal so we can be NUMBER ONE in numbers of poor children in the developed world. Because it's godly to want children to be born so we can watch them suffer while we go buy another car and eat some filet mignon.

    Makes perfect sense! Why didn't I see it before?
    That's not the logic Marmie, opposition to abortion is not accompanied by affirming the need for unwanted pregnancies, at least never in any of the advocacy which I have heard. Often those who oppose abortion would be equally as apt to oppose conception too. Not that they always endorse contraception, in fact many dont other than abstinence.

    The question is not whether it is Godly to want children born or not but whether or not it is Godly to terminate an innocent life and those who believe life begins at conception do not believe it is Godly to terminate it. That's the unassailable logic there and in so far as it is kept that simple it is also correct.

    I personally do not believe in abortion, I definitely do not believe in it as a form of contraception akin to any other sort, although as a man I see my duty and means of preventing abortions to be linked to refraining from unprotected sex with any woman regardless of whether they have a responsibility for contraception or can be 100% assured as to be using it or not. This is the missing part of the abortion debate. The irresponsible male and dead beat dad. The prohibition or legality of abortion would seem to not effect males in the least and it should, I'm in favour of it being made some how to matter to males as much as it does to females. Right up to and including irreversible and compulsory sterilisation of any male who unwittingly or willingly conceives of a child which is unwanted.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    The versions of Christianity which favour theories of predestination of an elect few to paradise are pretty elitist Marmie, they wouldnt be embarrassed by the poverty of anyone, man, women or child.

    That's just calvinism though, that's before you even get into the harsher or weird realms of so called theonomics, that's the biblical literalists ideas about economies, including the story of the talents was actually about investment strategy etc.

    Bizarre. Personally I've always thought that its odd that biblical literalists succeed in the sumersaults of logic necessary not to find themselves in the same camp as liberation theologians or the author of communism in the bible, cant remember his name, or even medieval europe in which loans and banking were outlawed as usury.

    There's a great novelisation of how a medieval barony turning capitalist manages to circumvent the religious laws of the time in the novel Jack Faust (itself a really amazing piece of science fiction reworking of the Dr Faustus myth, although the anti-semitism towards the end is hard to read, even if the overall narrative of the devils tempting Faust to turn away from love and life towards death and destruction is great). The rules were real enough and the Borges totally attacked the Jews for usury the most when they had worked out a way to enter the market as traders themselves first.
    Well I think it's partly the propaganda, partly people NOT KNOWING we have the second highest child poverty rate in the developed world. And if we cut entitlement programs or make abortion illegal, that number will be even higher. The U.S. has an absurd view of itself, and that is pure propaganda, is my point. I'm sure many of these Christians would feel guilty if they realized this was happening, though of course the hardcore prosperity gospel types or modern-day Calvinists may not, they make up a smaller portion of the population. I am more inclined to believe that the larger portion of the crazed right winger population is just ...brainwashed, more or less.

    I mean for example, Tennessee, actually a VERY right wing red state...ordered some crazy fucking ESFJ who renamed her adoptive Russian son Artyom, Justin (at 8 years old..who the fuck renames an 8 year old) before sending him back to Russia alone with a note pinned to his chest..to pay $150,000 in damages and $1000 per month to him, in Russia, for the rest of his life until he turns 18.

    The Christian right likes these big showy gestures, of how magnanimous and righteous and rich Americans are...meanwhile, the reality is something else entirely.

    And that tends to exist in countries with such massive political propaganda that people believe blindly in the superiority of their nation.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Well I think it's partly the propaganda, partly people NOT KNOWING we have the second highest child poverty rate in the developed world. And if we cut entitlement programs or make abortion illegal, that number will be even higher. The U.S. has an absurd view of itself, and that is pure propaganda, is my point. I'm sure many of these Christians would feel guilty if they realized this was happening, though of course the hardcore prosperity gospel types or modern-day Calvinists may not, they make up a smaller portion of the population. I am more inclined to believe that the larger portion of the crazed right winger population is just ...brainwashed, more or less.

    I mean for example, Tennessee, actually a VERY right wing red state...ordered some crazy fucking ESFJ who renamed her adoptive Russian son Artyom, Justin (at 8 years old..who the fuck renames an 8 year old) before sending him back to Russia alone with a note pinned to his chest..to pay $150,000 in damages and $1000 per month to him, in Russia, for the rest of his life until he turns 18.

    The Christian right likes these big showy gestures, of how magnanimous and righteous and rich Americans are...meanwhile, the reality is something else entirely.

    And that tends to exist in countries with such massive political propaganda that people believe blindly in the superiority of their nation.
    I dont know if its got anything to do with Christianity as professed in the US but I know that of the US citizens I know who are hardcore Ron Paulistas or the like the statistics about child poverty would not matter or be considered any hall mark of inferiority of the nation because they would not believe those statistics or measures.

    They would suspect either liberal lying to sustain programmes and their attendent admin or professional jobs, that comparably the US is still better of than others, it may be but who are you making the comparisons with? And finally that most right wingers take very subsistance, very absolute (as opposed to relative) measures of poverty to heart.

    To be honest a lot of anti-welfarist programme thinking in the US is that way because those who believe it are virtually survivalist in their out look. The sorts of things which elsewhere would be causes for shame, concern or class anger, like raising your own rabbits for food while execs award themselves further millions for escaping liability in billionaire fraud, are instead badges of honour, commendable and celebrated instead. The "American way" has a lot to say about "honest poverty" versus welfare payments.

    A lot of Clint Eastwood's movies, million dollar baby, gran torino, reflect that and are all centred on the theme of whether or not something has been "earned", in million dollar baby the family who extort money from the star on her death bed are the films villains, even more so than the Ruskie who broke her neck, in gran torino despite being wealthy the family arent deemed to have "earned" a place within the will. Now those movies are good examples of the ways in which work ethics of a particular sort can stop people becoming wealthy or changing their status through misguided ideas about obligations and what constitutes work or earning something but they do illustrate well the "honest toil" norms.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I dont know if its got anything to do with Christianity as professed in the US but I know that of the US citizens I know who are hardcore Ron Paulistas or the like the statistics about child poverty would not matter or be considered any hall mark of inferiority of the nation because they would not believe those statistics or measures.

    They would suspect either liberal lying to sustain programmes and their attendent admin or professional jobs, that comparably the US is still better of than others, it may be but who are you making the comparisons with? And finally that most right wingers take very subsistance, very absolute (as opposed to relative) measures of poverty to heart.

    To be honest a lot of anti-welfarist programme thinking in the US is that way because those who believe it are virtually survivalist in their out look. The sorts of things which elsewhere would be causes for shame, concern or class anger, like raising your own rabbits for food while execs award themselves further millions for escaping liability in billionaire fraud, are instead badges of honour, commendable and celebrated instead. The "American way" has a lot to say about "honest poverty" versus welfare payments.

    A lot of Clint Eastwood's movies, million dollar baby, gran torino, reflect that and are all centred on the theme of whether or not something has been "earned", in million dollar baby the family who extort money from the star on her death bed are the films villains, even more so than the Ruskie who broke her neck, in gran torino despite being wealthy the family arent deemed to have "earned" a place within the will. Now those movies are good examples of the ways in which work ethics of a particular sort can stop people becoming wealthy or changing their status through misguided ideas about obligations and what constitutes work or earning something but they do illustrate well the "honest toil" norms.
    Well what is ironic about this is that many of the poor in the U.S. are working poor. There are even middle class people without health insurance. But they didn't "earn" it?

    I have a very hard time seeing the logic in this, though I do comprehend people seeing absolute poverty as absolute, if we become even more to the right fiscally, we WILL have more absolute poverty - the modest social programs are really all we have from actually making this country look like a developing nation which most Americans would view as inferior. We will have old-fashioned absolute poverty if these social programs are cut. America will have dirt poor and fabulous wealth, so then we can join the ranks of such stellar, enviable nations as Mexico, where all the citizens seem to want to stay!

    And that's why I say we border on the third world. Some people don't care, they'll be happy with the economic disparity, and it will be fine for them at first, but in the long run it would lead to more pollution and crime and ignorance and there goes our country. Say farewell to the American dream, it was all a big Hollywood set, anyway.

    I bring up Russia a lot because I find it to be a country that the U.S. continues to see itself as up against, despite the end of the Cold War, people still called Obama a "communist" when he was running for president, like these people have no concept of there anything but there being these black-and-white salt 'n pepper shaker "sides" in the big world chess game.

    Also, because the entire concept of Objectivism was dreamed up by a crazy Russian woman.

    Oh, world stage, you so funny.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes, the First world was "free", the second world communist, and the third world neutral.
    I always wondered about that. I assumed it was [1]"Old World", [2]"New World", and then the Third World was just everywhere else that wasn't "developed" or modernized yet.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I always wondered about that. I assumed it was [1]"Old World", [2]"New World", and then the Third World was just everywhere else that wasn't "developed" or modernized yet.
    America, the Eastern bloc, and then "unimportant others" seems to have been the model.

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