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  1. #21
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    It isn't an environment I really recommend for women. I usually try to talk women out of joining. But I'd rather deal with rapes, sexual harassment, and assault than deal with a squadron of eunuchs.

    Our own bio-dome of sorts creates an environment prime for any sort of crime. Petty theft usually goes uninvestigated, no one is held truly accountable for paper work issues and mistakes (didn't get what you signed up for? It's your fault. Didn't understand the complex system of papers to sign? That's your fault too.), and many issues can be swept under the rug, out of sight and out of mind, that are very illegal civilian side. Higher ups and officers can simply 'retire' when they've done something that will change entire lives and careers the way CEOs resign and assume that that is punishment enough for their crimes.

    We really do get away with a lot.. There are reasons for this, and we cannot run our organization exactly like a civilian sector. It just is not possible. Civilians deal with another world from ours. We're a different animal.
    Because of this, we deal directly with people. We try to get the best people we can.. but we are not an organization of the best of the best. We are an organization of people willing to sign.
    It's difficult to say things like that, because the other side of this coin is many people absolutely shine in this environment. Being relied upon, and having those heavy responsibilities creates situations where a soldier can not only love his job, but can spread that love to others. It is a beautiful thing.

    But you mix that heavy sentiment with the current army standards of trying to control sex in the workplace the way an over-bearing father tries to control a teenage daughter, and you end up with a recipe for disaster. The military is swinging the wrong way--they want to put MORE strict codes, MORE 'men and women intermingling is bad!' and more guilt on people being perfectly human. Sexual harassment education will not solve anything.. it isn't the core problem in my eyes.

    Military men and women are still people, and they still desire and have wants and needs. Any time you stifle those (strict religious morals and codes, and jail environments immediately come to mind) you will end up with a backlash uglier than the normal problems and concerns that come with sex. It is drama either way, but I think the army needs to take a more reactive approach to it instead of trying to proactively treat everyone like a teenager forced to say abstinence ring vows so that he doesn't look like a douche in front of his parents.

    Also, I don't think rape should be punishable by death. That's ridiculous. With the amount of women that cry 'rape' that actually just got drunk and regret their decision in the morning, it'd be a nightmare.

    And I would STILL prefer that to someone trying to lower my libido with some miracle medication because someone else can't control themselves and just do their damn job.
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  2. #22
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Hyperbole. I'm not suggesting that we render them into mindless drones or anything, just slight altercation of their behaviors to conform to a higher standard. In a sense, it would be the equivalent of administering mood stabilizer drugs to a group of people where half of them half mood disorders. it fixes those with the disorders while bringing no harm or significant change to those with an already normal state of mind.
    You presume this is a disorder. The high frequency suggests that this is a common and normal response to wartime conditions. Humans were built to be productive and not destructive. It is a good thing that humans are not built to function well in war and a recognition of this should cause a society to limit its military activity instead of altering humans.



    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Additionally, it could be argued that personal identity within the military isn't actually important at all, given that one of the first things they do to new recruits is shave their heads and dress them in identical uniforms (all of which is suppose to break down the idea of self importance; that's how militaries are suppose to operate).
    Personal identity is fundemental to moral consciousness.
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  3. #23
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    Hyperbole. I'm not suggesting that we render them into mindless drones or anything, just slight altercation of their behaviors to conform to a higher standard. In a sense, it would be the equivalent of administering mood stabilizer drugs to a group of people where half of them half mood disorders. it fixes those with the disorders while bringing no harm or significant change to those with an already normal state of mind.
    Good idea.

    Additionally, it could be argued that personal identity within the military isn't actually important at all, given that one of the first things they do to new recruits is shave their heads and dress them in identical uniforms (all of which is suppose to break down the idea of self importance; that's how militaries are suppose to operate).
    It could be argued, and it would be completely wrong.
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

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    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

  4. #24
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It's difficult to say things like that, because the other side of this coin is many people absolutely shine in this environment. Being relied upon, and having those heavy responsibilities creates situations where a soldier can not only love his job, but can spread that love to others. It is a beautiful thing.
    My comments above didn't make allowance for this. There are exceptions. I've known a few soldiers who are very brave and of the highest moral caliber even in the middle of a moral and violent shit-storm. I'm proud to know them and proud that they're willing to serve.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #25
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Savage Idealist View Post
    What? The drug would only limit impulses motivated by sexual desires; rather than wait until a soldier commits or attempts inappropriate acts, they would be prevented from even thinking about it.



    Hyperbole. I'm not suggesting that we render them into mindless drones or anything, just slight altercation of their behaviors to conform to a higher standard. In a sense, it would be the equivalent of administering mood stabilizer drugs to a group of people where half of them half mood disorders. it fixes those with the disorders while bringing no harm or significant change to those with an already normal state of mind.

    Additionally, it could be argued that personal identity within the military isn't actually important at all, given that one of the first things they do to new recruits is shave their heads and dress them in identical uniforms (all of which is suppose to break down the idea of self importance; that's how militaries are suppose to operate).
    Wrong, wrong, and wrong. On so many levels.
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  6. #26
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    I recall in my first year of college a guy who said his penis had a scar because he tried to rape a girl while he was in the army and she had put a razor inside of her lady parts. He was trying to gain sympathy with his story. I told him he was disgusting.

    Later I found out which car was his, slashed all four of his tires, left bologna on his car as well as eggs to fry in the hot sun, and poured sugar in his gas tank.

    I don't get how someone can actually think they're in the right for doing fucked up shit like that. I mean even I know screwing with his car was wrong of me [not that I would do things differently].

  7. #27
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Humans were built to be productive and not destructive. It is a good thing that humans are not built to function well in war and a recognition of this should cause a society to limit its military activity instead of altering humans.

    Personal identity is fundemental to moral consciousness.
    All police, firies and soldiers have physical courage but few have moral courage. This is because when we put on a uniform, we loose our moral courage.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    You presume this is a disorder. The high frequency suggests that this is a common and normal response to wartime conditions. Humans were built to be productive and not destructive. It is a good thing that humans are not built to function well in war and a recognition of this should cause a society to limit its military activity instead of altering humans.
    Quite frankly I don't care how human beings were built in terms of psychology. Everything in this world is as malleable as clay; all it takes is the right hands and any shape can be altered into something new; this also applies to artificially changing the way people think. In terms of disorder, well a disorder is really nothing more than something uncommon that goes against the norm; it's relative to the norm and not really a disorder in of itself. In that regard, I recall using the word 'disorder'. Rather I should specify that it's a problematic method of thought that needs attention as it's disruptive to what a truly organized military should be. Is it very common? All the more reason to attempt to fix it; grand problems shouldn't just be ignored to carelessly. Some might not be willing to take risky or possible unethical means to solve those problems, but I will not let such prejudices prevent me from accomplishing what I think is necessary.

    Personal identity is fundemental to moral consciousness.
    Bull shit. Individual people aren't necessarily any better at morals than like-minded groups of people.

    Also consider; do 'personal identity' and 'moral consciousness' really have place within a military complex?

    Quote Originally Posted by Metamorphosis View Post
    I see that you favor hyperbole as well. I'm not suggesting that we create an entire society devoid of emotion, rather that we conform certain levels of thought within the military to a standard level. We already implement numerous methods of conformity in society, not just the military but personal life as well. Do I like this conformity all over the place? Not really, well at least not in certain circumstances, or if it effects me. But throwing a little more conformity within an institution that already attempts to enforce great discipline isn't going to lead to some sort of Orwellian hell hole tomorrow

    It could be argued, and it would be completely wrong.
    Then argue.

    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    Wrong, wrong, and wrong. On so many levels.
    Meh, whatever.

  9. #29
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    Forcing a behavior changing drug on people would effectively destroy morale. I mean, really, do you think a clerk in the Army needs something like that any more than a clerk anywhere else does? Or a truck driver? Why not do it to the entire population? Once you start altering people's brains where do you stop? I would rather have someone that could think on their feet and that pursues their own interests outside of work than someone that just blindly follows rules. Most people in the military are just doing there 3 years out of high school and getting out. They're not slaves.

    Look at some of the best units and you'll see some of the greatest displays of personal identity in the military from a vary diverse group of people. That's not a coincidence.

    "Must be a yearning deep in the human heart to stop other people from doing as they please. Rules, laws — always for other fellow. A murky part of us, something we had before we came down out of trees, and failed to shuck when we stood up. Because not one of those people said: Please pass this so that I won't be able to do something I know I should stop. Nyet, tovarishchee, was always something they hated to see neighbors doing. Stop them for their own good." - Robert Heinlein

    People always seem to think that soldiers require some kind of strict control to operate. Not the case. In my experience, soldiers tend to have better self control and more sense of personal responsibility than civilians (obviously there are a lot of exceptions).
    "You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit."

    Reason is, and ought only to be the slave of the passions, and can never pretend to any other office
    than to serve and obey them. - David Hume

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