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  1. #131
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    So you're trying to make a distinction between the politics versus the legality of this decision?
    Regarding the original post jonnyboy quoted, I was responding to onemoretime's apparent insinuation that I wanted obamacare overturned because I oppose the policy on statutory grounds (i.e. I just plain dislike Obamacare), rather than Constitutional grounds (i.e. I think its an unconstitutional expansion of federal powers). I was trying to say I would never support the Supreme Court overturning a law simply because I didn't like the law in question.

    Edit: More generally, I was debating the validity of the Supreme Court decision, not the legal authority of that decision.

  2. #132
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    For the same reason you pay to fund the fire department and police: they are considered essential services, and you never know when you might need them. It all comes down to what things should be paid for using a fee-for-service model, and what should be paid for by everyone making a contribution. National defense, K-12 education, and public safety mostly fall in the second category, because their broader impact on society is generally understood and accepted. Many people see medical services as something that should be added to that list.
    I have no problem with paying for COMMUNITY services like road maintenance, even for roads I don't use.

    HOWEVER, *private* insurance is just for ME. I don't want $400 insurance for myself so I'm not gonna get it.

    But then here comes this "universal healthcare fairy" that points a gun to my head in the form of a fine and tells me I have to get it for my own good. When we ALL know it is NOT for my own good but rather someone else's own good. And the government pats itself on the back for "solving this problem."

    That's what bugs the hell out of me!


    Of course, if we had true universal health care supported by (federal income) taxes, your effective monthly bill might be much less since it would be directly indexed to your income.
    Exactly! Another point I was making.

    I just think Americans are being duped.

    And I'm laughing hysterically because somehow I have found myself in the political company of @Lateralus.

    How did this happen?

    Wait...@Orangey! Come save me from financial conservatism!
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  3. #133
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I have no problem with paying for COMMUNITY services like road maintenance, even for roads I don't use.

    HOWEVER, *private* insurance is just for ME. I don't want $400 insurance for myself so I'm not gonna get it.

    But then here comes this "universal healthcare fairy" that points a gun to my head in the form of a fine and tells me I have to get it for my own good. When we ALL know it is NOT for my own good but rather someone else's own good. And the government pats itself on the back for "solving this problem."

    That's what bugs the hell out of me!




    Exactly! Another point I was making.

    I just think Americans are being duped.

    And I'm laughing hysterically because somehow I have found myself in the political company of @Lateralus.

    How did this happen?
    Well, no--insurance is for everybody. When people don't opt in, people end up getting in accidents or getting surprise illnesses that cost much more than they can afford, but hospitals have to treat them in emergency situations. So those unexpected situations bankrupt folks who don't have insurance and drive up the prices of health care for those who are paying for it through insurance. Also, if people become chronically disabled because they don't receive preventative care (or even just... care) because they don't have insurance, they often become dependent on the state.

    My problem with this is the gun-to-the-citizen's-head approach to it. Do I think that you, CzeCze, should have to have insurance? YES. You should have insurance for the reasons I mentioned and more. It is NOT just about you. However, the conversation should be more about how healthcare is a basic human right, not as much about having insurance (which I kind of feel like is the biggest scam ever) is a responsibility. In our current system, yeah, insurance is a responsibility. But the bigger point to me is that everybody should be able to access health care without compromising their financial security. This bill really puts insurance companies first, not people. Obama didn't want to go with the individual mandate but was convinced that he had to because that was how to get agreement on it. Feh.

    What we need is a single-payer system in which preventative care is emphasized (and incentivized if that's necessary) and where health care costs are lower. Eliminating the bureaucracy involved with reimbursement via insurance companies would be a step in lowering costs.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  4. #134
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by raine_lynn View Post
    That was me, and you found it for the state of California. I don't live there, or even close. Trust me, I've looked into it and had a panic attack over it. I'm still trying to find options, but then again, we have until January 1st of 2014 (as it stands now).
    No, I found it for TN, in your county.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  5. #135
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    My problem with this is the gun-to-the-citizen's-head approach to it. Do I think that you, CzeCze, should have to have insurance? YES. You should have insurance for the reasons I mentioned and more. It is NOT just about you. However, the conversation should be more about how healthcare is a basic human right, not as much about having insurance (which I kind of feel like is the biggest scam ever) is a responsibility. In our current system, yeah, insurance is a responsibility. But the bigger point to me is that everybody should be able to access health care without compromising their financial security. This bill really puts insurance companies first, not people. Obama didn't want to go with the individual mandate but was convinced that he had to because that was how to get agreement on it. Feh.
    First, IT IS ABOUT ME!! :has giant tantrum, looks to nearest religious text to back up first point:

    But yes, it's a total scam. Private insurance does not equal universal health care.

    Joking aside, my indignation is based on a sense of moral outrage at having the conversation framed this way. Currently, high theory aside, insurance IS just about me. This system is broken and the private insurance field IS an opt-in completely optional luxury. This new Obamacare plan makes it even MORE about me and it rests the responsibility on fixing a broken system squarely upon my PERSONAL shoulders as a consumer, not a citizen to pay a limited number of private companies for pre-existing crappy services and THAT is supposed to be my social and patriotic duty - and yours as well - that will somehow make life better for everyone and fix the problem of abysmal health care in this country. That's why it's about me.

    Privatization is about OPTIONS. Not only do I not get A choice to opt out of this, but I don't really get choices after that on what kind of health care I want under my insurance.

    If this were truly universal PUBLIC health care, I would not mind at all. I don't care about high taxes as long as there is a commensurate benefit to them and I trust that these public services would be coming out of my taxes 1x a year or on every pay check as other monies for public services do. I'm well aware that the tax margin in the states is much lower than in equally 'relatively developed' countries.

    I just completely reject the idea that 1) somehow me footing an over-inflated bill for crappy health insurance is going to 'save' anything or anyone and that 2) the problem isn't the system, it's me and 3) this changes anything fundamentally. It doesn't.

    What we need is a single-payer system in which preventative care is emphasized (and incentivized if that's necessary) and where health care costs are lower. Eliminating the bureaucracy involved with reimbursement via insurance companies would be a step in lowering costs.
    I think that could be a good start.

    Of course once we start down this path, the food lobbyists are gonna have a heart attack (haha, get it, yes I guess pun was intentional) because you can't tell Americans the government cares about "universal health care" while at the same time pushing an agenda of obesity
    and heart disease on us.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  6. #136
    Senior Member Eileen's Avatar
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    Yeah @CzeCze, I think we're pretty much in agreement here.

    Fucking compromise.
    INFJ

    "I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. You can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be. This is the interrelated structure of reality." -Martin Luther King, Jr.

  7. #137
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    What we need is a single-payer system in which preventative care is emphasized (and incentivized if that's necessary) and where health care costs are lower. Eliminating the bureaucracy involved with reimbursement via insurance companies would be a step in lowering costs.
    Single-payer could be a pretty big improvement over the giant mess we have now. When I talk about eliminating Medicare, I'm mostly joking (mostly only because Medicare's inefficiency is a joke). I like calling right-wingers hypocrites for not taking their ideology "all the way" and just getting rid of all entitlement programs and living as "God intended".
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #138
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    I have no problem with paying for COMMUNITY services like road maintenance, even for roads I don't use.

    HOWEVER, *private* insurance is just for ME. I don't want $400 insurance for myself so I'm not gonna get it.

    But then here comes this "universal healthcare fairy" that points a gun to my head in the form of a fine and tells me I have to get it for my own good. When we ALL know it is NOT for my own good but rather someone else's own good. And the government pats itself on the back for "solving this problem."

    That's what bugs the hell out of me!




    Exactly! Another point I was making.

    I just think Americans are being duped.

    And I'm laughing hysterically because somehow I have found myself in the political company of @Lateralus.

    How did this happen?

    Wait...@Orangey! Come save me from financial conservatism!
    Oh CzeCze, you may be too far gone!

    But as I find myself ambivalent about all this, I think you may need a different savior.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #139
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    Fucking compromise.
    Haha! I couldn't tell if that was a description about the current state of affairs, a comment about what should happen, or a directive.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  10. #140

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    I'm surprised that you're opposed to this Czecze, the reality is that insurance doesnt commodify the way that, say, soft drinks do, so the usual personal responsibility/personal consequences paradigms dont apply.

    In order for a market in anything to operate a number of basic suppositions have to be met making for competition approximating perfect conditions, that the commodity is pretty homogenous, buyers and sellers have perfect information, infinite buyers and sellers, no exist and entry costs etc. (look it up in a wiki). That's fine for simple commodities and services and I would say that the personal responsibility/consequences paradigms DO apply, and apply well, in those circumstances. Those circumstances are not health services.

    However, its not really a theoretical matter, the evidence is there, the market was given long enough to provide universal health and it failed to do so. I know libertarians are fond of blaming all market failures on the state or suggesting that better a failing market than either a successful state or failing state option but there was a long, long, long period of history in which there was no public interest in health services and it was all a matter of personal responsibility/consequences. Life expectancy was very low.

    Its not really economics or social policy in these debates it is much more about norms and ideology.

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