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  1. #121
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Thanks, I read it over but it is not inspiring any hope. Lots of 'maybes' and 'probably'. I honestly don't understand why people are saying this "universal healthcare". It is NOT. It is forcing people who cannot afford health care to do so anyway. If we had a stronger middle class the idea of paying for the weakest extremes of society (children/elderly/sick/poor) and grading the percentage higher for the middle and upper middle class and straight up elite class would work but the 'median income' range is pretty low for major metro centers. Basically, it's hard getting by middle class and staying middle class at this point. The elite class can afford the minimum $400 of private insurance per person it costs for decent preventative comprehensive coverage.

    I'm a healthy 'no prior conditions' relatively young non-smoking female and when I checked just last month for coverage in my area it was fucking ridiculous. You need to shell out a minimum of $100 for anything resembling NOT CATASTROPHIC EMERGENCY insurance and closer to $200+ for preventative plans with reasonable premiums and co-pays. For the 'good stuff' it's more like $400+ HOW IS THIS AFFORDABLE? Obviously I'm either not working or I'm under-working else I'd have coverage under my employer, so why stick me with a $400 monthly bill for a service that I will 98% chance NOT use but 2x a year for an annual check-up and random flu?

    It's actually cheaper currently just to go to a community doctor, clinic, or EMERGENCY ROOM and not pay for medical care. I get any necessary tests from off the grid specialty 'no insurance' centers including an internist with a social mission (btw ENTP I think) and budget ultrasound, cat scan etc. centers There is seriously an underground market for these types of places. Whole 'no insurance' medical industry is up and running. It ends up all being cheaper for me than paying for insurance.

    The reviews for the different health insurance companies is usually abysmal too. And its very easy to get cheated out of your claim or it to take to long and have too many hoops be too confusing, etc. This reminds me of getting a mortgage, you're pretty much fucked no matter what, regardless of what a relative "deal" you get or your particular lender. No matter how terrible things get you are expected to grin and bear it and waste countless hours taking care of problems your provider is causing for you.

    Again, I am seriously, seriously, seriously not getting what people are so excited about and specifically this 'universal health care' bs. It's a law to have car insurance but I don't see anyone celebrating 'universal coverage of cars'.

    I seriously think this is a conspiracy pushed in part health insurance companies.

    I feel extorted already. I'd rather pay the penalty every year and give a big FU to the jeniuses who thought this up and health insurance scams than "be loving and kind to myself" and get myself bogus sub-par health insurance. What an insult and injury.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
    We need to reform the cost and approach of health care. This bill doesn't really seem set up to do so.
    EXACTLY!
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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  2. #122
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    No kidding.

    You kind of missed my point....
    Your point was that the ACA should be overturned because you think it is unconstitutional. My point was that it can only be overturned if 5 out of the 9 justicies think it is unconstitutional, which they do not. In the end, the public will get to decide, this November, what happens with healthcare. If they elect Romney and Republican majorities to the Senate and House, then it will be overturned. If they elect Obama and let Democrats keep control of the Senate, then it won't.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  3. #123
    null Jonny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Thanks, I read it over but it is not inspiring any hope. Lots of 'maybes' and 'probably'. I honestly don't understand why people are saying this "universal healthcare". It is NOT. It is forcing people who cannot afford health care to do so anyway. If we had a stronger middle class the idea of paying for the weakest extremes of society (children/elderly/sick/poor) and grading the percentage higher for the middle and upper middle class and straight up elite class would work but the 'median income' range is pretty low for major metro centers. Basically, it's hard getting by middle class and staying middle class at this point. The elite class can afford the minimum $400 of private insurance per person it costs for decent preventative comprehensive coverage.

    I'm a healthy 'no prior conditions' relatively young non-smoking female and when I checked just last month for coverage in my area it was fucking ridiculous. You need to shell out a minimum of $100 for anything resembling NOT CATASTROPHIC EMERGENCY insurance and closer to $200+ for preventative plans with reasonable premiums and co-pays. For the 'good stuff' it's more like $400+ HOW IS THIS AFFORDABLE? Obviously I'm either not working or I'm under-working else I'd have coverage under my employer, so why stick me with a $400 monthly bill for a service that I will 98% chance NOT use but 2x a year for an annual check-up and random flu?
    A person on vent was complaining about the costs of healthcare, and I found for her, in 2 minutes, online, healthcare for her and her husband for 90 dollars per month (for the both of them). There are exemptions if someone is poor enough, and subsidies if you fall within a particular range. If you aren't willing to put aside money for catastrophic emergencies (via a cheap health insurance policy), then if something major happens to you everyone else has to split the bill without ANY contribution from you.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  4. #124
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    Your point was that the ACA should be overturned because you think it is unconstitutional.
    No, my point was that I thought it should be overturned for being unconstitutional, rather than because I disagreed with the policies (as a purely practical matter, I don't actually object to the individual mandate as a policy).

    Edit: As for the rest, my entire position is that the federal government lacks the Constitutional authority to implement the ACA, and it is therefore outside the realm of electoral politics barring a Constitutional amendment.

  5. #125
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    I think the point is that what they deem constitutional is constitutional. Period. End of story.
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
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  6. #126
    Senior Member lowtech redneck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Haight View Post
    I think the point is that what they deem constitutional is constitutional. Period. End of story.
    As a legal matter, yes. I wasn't challenging the Constitutional authority of Supreme Court decisions, any more than people who disagree with me would have if the decision went the other way.

  7. #127
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    Thanks, I read it over but it is not inspiring any hope. Lots of 'maybes' and 'probably'. I honestly don't understand why people are saying this "universal healthcare". It is NOT. It is forcing people who cannot afford health care to do so anyway.
    You are correct that it is not universal health care. It should be, but the current political environment will not support that.

    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    why stick me with a $400 monthly bill for a service that I will 98% chance NOT use but 2x a year for an annual check-up and random flu?
    For the same reason you pay to fund the fire department and police: they are considered essential services, and you never know when you might need them. It all comes down to what things should be paid for using a fee-for-service model, and what should be paid for by everyone making a contribution. National defense, K-12 education, and public safety mostly fall in the second category, because their broader impact on society is generally understood and accepted. Many people see medical services as something that should be added to that list.

    Of course, if we had true universal health care supported by (federal income) taxes, your effective monthly bill might be much less since it would be directly indexed to your income.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #128
    Doesn't Read Your Posts Haight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowtech redneck View Post
    As a legal matter, yes. I wasn't challenging the Constitutional authority of Supreme Court decisions, any more than people who disagree with me would have if the decision went the other way.
    So you're trying to make a distinction between the politics versus the legality of this decision?
    "The only time I'm wrong is when I'm questioning myself."
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  9. #129
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    A person on vent was complaining about the costs of healthcare, and I found for her, in 2 minutes, online, healthcare for her and her husband for 90 dollars per month (for the both of them). There are exemptions if someone is poor enough, and subsidies if you fall within a particular range. If you aren't willing to put aside money for catastrophic emergencies (via a cheap health insurance policy), then if something major happens to you everyone else has to split the bill without ANY contribution from you.
    That was me, and you found it for the state of California. I don't live there, or even close. Trust me, I've looked into it and had a panic attack over it. I'm still trying to find options, but then again, we have until January 1st of 2014 (as it stands now).
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  10. #130
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
    A person on vent was complaining about the costs of healthcare, and I found for her, in 2 minutes, online, healthcare for her and her husband for 90 dollars per month (for the both of them). There are exemptions if someone is poor enough, and subsidies if you fall within a particular range. If you aren't willing to put aside money for catastrophic emergencies (via a cheap health insurance policy), then if something major happens to you everyone else has to split the bill without ANY contribution from you.
    Eh, I get the 'greater good social responsibility' aspect but I think the whole RIGHT to healthcare is more pressing. In this democratic capitalist society, technically I don't have to make it easy for anyone else financially. I end up being a burden specifically because there's only 1 option of "look out for yourself". And if others can't take care of me, I am f*cked AND you are f*cked. Is that ironic because this Obamacare is supposed to stop that cycle?

    And that catastrophic event is unlikely and you and I both know it. It is a statistical um...outlier? Um...rare possibility. :P Which is what insurance companies build their businesses on. So my $90 minimum premium for my crappy emergency no preventative care coverage ends up covering someone else's preventative care and emergency but especially pays for the insurance companie's new private jet and whatever lobbyist got to the right lawmakers.

    So the "you're irresponsible if you don't get your own insurance" sounds hollow to me. If the money for insurance were coming out of taxes for some reason I just don't mind as much. But, basically conducting business as usual and calling it "a reform" just makes me bristle for some reason.

    And I haven't really found that to be true that people get scot free off of medical bills that are burdened onto others. Unless the people are transient or truly indigent (a true minority) and hard to track down. Both my ex and my brother have been hit with ridiculously large medical bills which have to be negotiated down. My ex had emergency heart surgery and was sent to ICU but there was a gap in her insurance through employee provider while they were changing companies so she was denied coverage after the fact. The bill was fucking laughably ridiculous like $145,000 (don't even remember other than it was 6 figures and blew our minds) and they negotiated down to $40,000 or something, it's just pulling magic numbers from the air. Might as well have been $1 million in both cases as she was borderline indigent as it was. My brother got hit with a $15,000 bill for 1 emergency room visit after the cheaper urgent care center said they lacked the equipment to test him but the emergency room didn't test him with that machinery either even though they had it AND they gave him a SEPARATE $400 bill or something for the doctor in the ER! Hilarious to me.

    The whole medical/health industry is screwy and jacked up. People from pretty much every other country visit and say WTF is everything so expensive in the states, why is it like that? My friend is a nurse and her MD friend who has her own clinic nets LESS than a nurse's salary after all the malpractic insurance etc. is factored in. Hospital bills make no sense and are basically aribtrary IMHO and need an expert to decode even the bills. It is almost a built-in adversarial, suspicious, unhelpful relationship between caregiver and patient. The only people who come to America for medical care are those special cases that make for tabloid TV - "I have 2 heads", "My twin is growing out of my stomach", "Please stop this giant tumor on my face from eating me" etc. where the insane nature of the medical condition trumps the insane price of medical treatment and it's "free".

    It's the same concept as emergency care, you keep getting denied preventative and minor triage care until you're almost dead and then you get medical care only enough to keep you alive so you can mount more debt and be hit with a giant bill you can't pay.

    Basically, I don't see how with this system ^^ telling people "don't worry, unless you are a senior citizen or qualify for medicaid, you will have to pay a lot more than you want for questionable coverage" helps anything. I honest to god just do not see big reforms happening. I've shopped for home insurance, car insurance ,life insurance, health insurance (heaven help you if you file a "minor" claim, it will always end up being more expensive for you in the long run than just paying out of pocket) often it's practically a $$$ scam.

    Gosh...I must be really pissed about this because I keep ranting.

    But...you get the picture.

    This Obamacare is NOTHING revolutionary or hopeful. Unless medical care and the private insurance industry are fundamentally changed, I tell you, we are f*cked.

    BTW, if the government actually provides a sliding scale for "Obamacare" and makes it EASY to get and subsidizes a fair amount then I will complain less then.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

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