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  1. #71
    Uniqueorn William K's Avatar
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    No comments on the part where they endorse the party position of 1932 on economic matters?
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  2. #72
    Senior Member ZPowers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    ???

    Why would you complain about being taught straight facts?
    While I'm also concerned about the aspect of this that seems specifically designed to limit independent thought, and believe that "teaching the test" methods (which I think onemoretime may have been referring to in regards to the TAKS test) is incredibly ineffective, an additional issue is that we can't even fully trust the conservative Texas school board to teach "facts" per se, or at least not as historians see them:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031700560.html

    http://www.ketknbc.com/news/texas-te...re-controversy

    In full fairness, I will say that I don't know how effectively they can actually endorse this policy.
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  3. #73
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    The part I can’t get over is that to blindly rant and rally to arms over this demonstrates a lack of awareness of all the possible situations that could be really going on here, and shows exactly how gullible people really are and a lack of critical thinking skills – which is the really ironic and humorous part.

    An essential component of all propaganda is spin. You can’t just look at phraseology, you have to look at intended impact. Merely saying “critical thinking” is being encouraged doesn’t mean it is. When I was in grad school, “critical thinking” more often than not meant “adopting our new spoon fed belief system.” It wasn’t about critical thinking at all – it was code for reprogramming. If you actually tried to engage with the material in a critical way, they actually became hostile.

    One of the articles in the OP also mentions the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. This is a GREAT example of the same thing. If you look at what that treaty has been used to do in other countries that have ratified it, you will realize quickly it is not about children’s rights – that is a fleece issue, because we already have laws that protect children – it is a tool flexible enough in possible interpretation to be used for usurping a nation’s current laws and constitution about any matter conceivable by foreign entities, even defense spending. It is a perfect example of intended impact is not what its stated impact is. However, call it about children’s rights, and “ooh yeah… me no like being mean to children….that’s bad… really bad….” suddenly you have an army of bobble-headed simpletons rallying around a fleece issue at your disposal.

  4. #74
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    An essential component of all propaganda is spin. You can’t just look at phraseology, you have to look at intended impact. Merely saying “critical thinking” is being encouraged doesn’t mean it is. When I was in grad school, “critical thinking” more often than not meant “adopting our new spoon fed belief system.” It wasn’t about critical thinking at all – it was code for reprogramming. If you actually tried to engage with the material in a critical way, they actually became hostile.
    That's not critical thinking. If that's what the Republicans are upset about, then they should have said so. But that's not what they said. And you have to keep in mind, this wasn't a random tweet or Facebook post taken out of context. This is something they published in their party platform. They had plenty of time to work on the phrasing, but they chose this phrasing.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #75
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZPowers View Post
    While I'm also concerned about the aspect of this that seems specifically designed to limit independent thought, and believe that "teaching the test" methods (which I think onemoretime may have been referring to in regards to the TAKS test) is incredibly ineffective, an additional issue is that we can't even fully trust the conservative Texas school board to teach "facts" per se, or at least not as historians see them:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031700560.html

    http://www.ketknbc.com/news/texas-te...re-controversy

    In full fairness, I will say that I don't know how effectively they can actually endorse this policy.
    Yeah, teaching to the test as it has been applied broadly has been a huge problem. I think that part of the problem is an issue of centralization of educational policy and watering down the test to fit a giant group of people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Please. Do you really think they'd give two shits about OBE if it weren't viewed erroneously as some vehicle for the brainwashing of children in librul/godless/nihilist/feminist/communist/bolshevik/whatever values?



    So, let me get this straight. You don't know anything about OBE or why we should or shouldn't employ its methods, yet you're going to defend the position of these people - who have made it fairly clear what their motivations are - on the basis that there might be some theoretical benefit to their position despite its dubious goals and origins (of which you, and probably they, are not yet aware?)
    I only wish I knew as much as you. If only I had developed critical thinking skills I would have realized that it's wrong to ever question criticisms of the GOP.
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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    That's not critical thinking. If that's what the Republicans are upset about, then they should have said so. But that's not what they said. And you have to keep in mind, this wasn't a random tweet or Facebook post taken out of context. This is something they published in their party platform. They had plenty of time to work on the phrasing, but they chose this phrasing.
    Yup. Spin happens, and people take things out of context; but this is their credo. If they can't even word their own credo right on their own time, well, it also says something to me about their performance on the job at the very least... that their thinking and communication skills are not up to snuff.
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  7. #77
    Per Ardua Metamorphosis's Avatar
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    The Texas education system sucks, especially because of it's extreme focus on standardized testing, but whether that platform statement is just written poorly or not it looks pretty damning.

    Also, since their seems to be some confusion on this issue...I can't speak for rural areas, but I wasn't taught creationism in public school (in Texas obviously).
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  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Please. Do you really think they'd give two shits about OBE if it weren't viewed erroneously as some vehicle for the brainwashing of children in librul/godless/nihilist/feminist/communist/bolshevik/whatever values?
    Anyone who has any kind of concern about the academic success of American students would break their neck trying to keep OBE out of our schools, even if it wasn’t indeed a vehicle for brainwashing children, given a high percentage of OBE "outcomes" concern values, attitudes, opinions and relationships rather than objective information - a look at the outcomes that have so far been made public show that they are heavily layered with such "politically correct" notions as training for world citizenship and government (instead of patriotism), population control, radical environmentalism, and government "solutions" for every problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    So, let me get this straight. You don't know anything about OBE or why we should or shouldn't employ its methods, yet you're going to defend the position of these people - who have made it fairly clear what their motivations are - on the basis that there might be some theoretical benefit to their position despite its dubious goals and origins (of which you, and probably they, are not yet aware?)
    Yeah and you don’t either, given OBE uses students as guinea pigs in a vast social experiment, and OBE advocates are not able to produce any replicable research or pilot studies to show that it works. OBE is being forced on entire state school systems without any evidence that it has been tried anywhere and found effective. The best test of an OBE-type system was Chicago's experiment in the 1970s with Professor Benjamin Bloom's Mastery Learning (ML), which is essentially the same as OBE. ML was a colossal failure and was abandoned in disgrace in 1982. The test scores proved to be appallingly low and the illiteracy rate became a national scandal. Bloom, the father of ML, is well known for his statement that "the purpose of education is to change the thoughts, feelings and actions of students." Hmm. In addition to producing a nation of morons academically…. sounds like teaching values to me. But then again, I’m thinking critically.

  9. #79
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Please. Do you really think they'd give two shits about OBE if it weren't viewed erroneously as some vehicle for the brainwashing of children in librul/godless/nihilist/feminist/communist/bolshevik/whatever values?
    Being from Pennsyltucky, I can't really find fault with your logic here. Basically, the dogma drives the pushback, and then sometimes more legitimate reasons are dug out to support the pushback. It's pretty standard operation of that kind of mentality.

    With texas being at the lowest possible end of the educational spectrum in the United States, it's pretty clear that whatever is driving them... it ain't working. 49th lowest English scores, 45th lowest math scores? (out of 50 states... and the US takes a beating in the global scale of quality education.) Really, after you clear away all the dogma, those numbers kind of stand for themselves.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  10. #80
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mia. View Post
    Anyone who has any kind of concern about the academic success of American students would break their neck trying to keep OBE out of our schools, even if it wasn’t indeed a vehicle for brainwashing children, given a high percentage of OBE "outcomes" concern values, attitudes, opinions and relationships rather than objective information - a look at the outcomes that have so far been made public show that they are heavily layered with such "politically correct" notions as training for world citizenship and government (instead of patriotism), population control, radical environmentalism, and government "solutions" for every problem.



    Yeah and you don’t either, given OBE uses students as guinea pigs in a vast social experiment, and OBE advocates are not able to produce any replicable research or pilot studies to show that it works. OBE is being forced on entire state school systems without any evidence that it has been tried anywhere and found effective. The best test of an OBE-type system was Chicago's experiment in the 1970s with Professor Benjamin Bloom's Mastery Learning (ML), which is essentially the same as OBE. ML was a colossal failure and was abandoned in disgrace in 1982. The test scores proved to be appallingly low and the illiteracy rate became a national scandal. Bloom, the father of ML, is well known for his statement that "the purpose of education is to change the thoughts, feelings and actions of students." Hmm. In addition to producing a nation of morons academically…. sounds like teaching values to me. But then again, I’m thinking critically.
    It would have been quite easy for the Republican party to express hostility toward OBE without tying it to critical thinking. If they had done that, I don't think you'd find anyone complaining. But that's not what they did. As I said earlier, none of this was taken out of context. This is what the Texas Republican Party believed was acceptable to publish. So we're taking them at their word. I refuse to make excuses for them.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

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