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  1. #61
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    I mean, call it what you want, but they spelled it out very clearly in quotes what the actual fear is.
    Right, but regardless of whether their fear is warranted or not the question is whether in this situation the fear is causing them to oppose a policy that is good or bad.

    The fear has nothing to do with whether the policy is good or bad.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  2. #62
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You've got it backwards.
    And, I think you have it backwards.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #63
    Senior Member swordpath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Right, but regardless of whether their fear is warranted or not the question is whether in this situation the fear is causing them to oppose a policy that is good or bad.

    The fear has nothing to do with whether the policy is good or bad.
    Their justification sucks then, because it makes them look like uneducated, brainwashed babies.

  4. #64
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    ???

    Why would you complain about being taught straight facts?
    The state can only force specific beliefs down your throat if controversial topics are being discussed. They can develop the same skills thinking about the Pythagorean theorem, Shakespeare, and photosynthesis that they can thinking about evolution, religion, and climate change.
    Well, first there's the question of what we get to define as "facts," and of these facts, which ones are "important facts."

    There's also the issue of facts being devoid of much of their meaning outside of context. Learning the Pythagorean Theorem by rote gives you the basic equation, but this can be useless without any sort of engagement on how the theorem is relevant today. Studying literature without attempting to apply its themes to the modern day almost entirely misses the point of studying it in the first place. Learning enough about photosynthesis to discuss the effect of climate change upon it requires a college level botany class, and not just high school biology. And as my 9th Grade biology teacher taught us back in Texas, you simply cannot teach biology effectively without teaching natural selection and genetics, because they are central to everything. That is because they are, indeed, fact.

    Also, one's success is dependent on pleasing authority.

    Start committing felonies and tell me whether that helps or hinders your success.
    That tells me how you define success. Lots of people would strongly disagree with you. Hell, the founders of this country all committed treason against the King.

  5. #65
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swordpath View Post
    Their justification sucks then, because it makes them look like uneducated, brainwashed babies.
    Yes, well I agree, but neither of us are TX Republicans.

    Quote Originally Posted by onemoretime View Post
    Well, first there's the question of what we get to define as "facts," and of these facts, which ones are "important facts."

    There's also the issue of facts being devoid of much of their meaning outside of context. Learning the Pythagorean Theorem by rote gives you the basic equation, but this can be useless without any sort of engagement on how the theorem is relevant today. Studying literature without attempting to apply its themes to the modern day almost entirely misses the point of studying it in the first place. Learning enough about photosynthesis to discuss the effect of climate change upon it requires a college level botany class, and not just high school biology. And as my 9th Grade biology teacher taught us back in Texas, you simply cannot teach biology effectively without teaching natural selection and genetics, because they are central to everything. That is because they are, indeed, fact.
    Like I said in the first post I don't know anything about OBE or traditional education methods. But, I think I've sufficiently proven that this is a more complex issue than it was originally being made out to be. I get the sense that you are misrepresenting the two sides in the post above. I KNOW I have mischaracterized them and I really wish I knew more since education is a terribly important subject to me.



    That tells me how you define success. Lots of people would strongly disagree with you. Hell, the founders of this country all committed treason against the King.
    My point is that simply ignoring the role of authority is a mistake. Willfully disobeying authority with a larger purpose in mind is a completely different matter.

    Besides, it was the founders' classical education that led them to be such great thinkers and visionaries.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  6. #66
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    And, I think you have it backwards.
    Your position is illogical. You're trying to argue that the more controversial statement is used to justify the less controversial statement. That makes no sense.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  7. #67
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Your position is illogical. You're trying to argue that the more controversial statement is used to justify the less controversial statement. That makes no sense.
    I'm saying the controversial statement is being used to justify a specific policy and there may be other proper justifications for the policy.

    I might want gun rights so it's easier for me to kill cute puppies, but that doesn't mean there aren't other good reasons for gun rights.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  8. #68
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    A grad school education, and that's the best you could come up with...

    Note taken.
    Bahahaha. I had no idea you were so credulous.

    [YOUTUBE="BA8tDzK_kPI"]Ken Wilber WTF[/YOUTUBE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    No, but there is plenty of evidence that supports my claim.
    Please, do enlighten us. This thread has made me giddy and I'm in the mood for a good laugh.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #69
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    I'm confused, that quote is from another thread and not a quote from me right?
    Ha yeah, I was just saying your OP is part of the overall "lets take our kids and country backwards in the name of Christian fundamentalism" shtick. No doubt thoe same peoplpe and compatriots are also the ones lobbying to teach Creationism in public schools.
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

    Johari/Nohari

  10. #70
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    Like I said in the first post I don't know anything about OBE or traditional education methods. But, I think I've sufficiently proven that this is a more complex issue than it was originally being made out to be. I get the sense that you are misrepresenting the two sides in the post above. I KNOW I have mischaracterized them and I really wish I knew more since education is a terribly important subject to me.
    Please. Do you really think they'd give two shits about OBE if it weren't viewed erroneously as some vehicle for the brainwashing of children in librul/godless/nihilist/feminist/communist/bolshevik/whatever values?

    Quote Originally Posted by Beefeater View Post
    I'm saying the controversial statement is being used to justify a specific policy and there may be other proper justifications for the policy.

    I might want gun rights so it's easier for me to kill cute puppies, but that doesn't mean there aren't other good reasons for gun rights.
    So, let me get this straight. You don't know anything about OBE or why we should or shouldn't employ its methods, yet you're going to defend the position of these people - who have made it fairly clear what their motivations are - on the basis that there might be some theoretical benefit to their position despite its dubious goals and origins (of which you, and probably they, are not yet aware?)
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

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