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  1. #21
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    Is anybody here familiar with the work of Ken Wilber?

    I've been aware of the guy for a while now, but have never really read his work.

    Anyway, I was reading an interview with him today, and it's amazing how well it maps onto this discussion.

    It's a very interesting interview, and I recommend you check the whole thing out: http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/int...iew1220_3.cfm/

    Anyway, to summarize: he works with a model known as spiral dynamics, originally posited by psychology professor Clare Graves.

    The theory posits different levels of evolution of human consciousness, and color codes them as such:

    Beige
    Summary: Archaic-instinctive—survivalistic/automatic/reflexological
    Time of origin: c. 100,000 BC
    Description: "Express self to meet imperative physiological needs through instincts of Homo sapiens."

    Purple
    Summary: Animistic-tribalistic magical-animistic Tribal order
    Time of origin: 50,000 BC
    Description: "Sacrifice to the ways of the elders and customs as one subsumed in group." This is the level of traditional cultures.

    Red
    Summary: Egocentric-exploitive power gods/dominionist
    Time of origin: 7000 BC
    Description: "Express self (impulsively) for what self desires without guilt and to avoid shame." Expressed by the mentality of street gangs, Vikings, etc.

    Blue
    Summary: Absolutistic-obedience mythic order—purposeful/authoritarian
    Time of origin: c. 3000 BC
    Description: "Sacrifice self for reward to come through obedience to rightful authority in purposeful Way." Embodied by fundamentalist religions.
    Note: Amber is Ken Wilber's current name for this stage.

    Orange
    Summary: Multiplistic-achievist scientific/strategic
    Time of origin: c. 1000 AD on (as early as 600 AD according to Graves and Calhoun)
    Description: "Express self (calculatedly) to reach goals and objectives without rousing the ire of important others." Expressed in the Scientific Revolution and the Industrial Revolution.

    Green
    Summary: Relativistic-personalistic—communitarian/egalitarian
    Time of origin: From 1850 on (surged in early 20th century)
    Description: "Sacrifice self-interest now in order to gain acceptance and group harmony." Expressed in 1960s pluralism and systems theory.

    Yellow
    Summary: Systemic-integrative
    Time of origin: 1950s
    Description: "Express self for what self desires, but to avoid harm to others so that all life, not just own life, will benefit."

    Turquoise
    Summary: Holistic
    Time of origin: 1970s
    Description: An integrative system which combines an organism's necessary self-interest with the interests of the communities in which it participates. The theory is still forming.
    These threads always read like Greens attacking Blues, which is exactly what Wilbur says Greens do in the article I posted above.

    Shambhala: But green often claims that what it is doing is "integral."

    KW: Yes, as Don Beck puts it, "Green looks at itself and always thinks that it is turquoise. Green always calls itself 'integral.'"

    Shambhala: As with Paul Ray's work.

    KW: Yes, I think so. Ray claims that some 25% of the American population is at an integral level. He calls this "the integral culture" composed of "cultural creatives." But all he's really measuring is the green meme. Now of course Ray is careful to point out that the cultural creatives actually contain many disparate subgroups. But he constantly calls all of them THE cultural creatives, because most of them do indeed share some common elements--such as the general green-meme value orientation. But if you look at any sophisticated measure of psychological development--from Jane Loevinger to Clare Graves to Susann Cook-Greuter to Robert Kegan to Don Beck--you find that the percentage of people at yellow is about 1.5%, and at turquoise, about 0.5%. The idea that 25% of Americans deserve to be put in a general group called "the integral culture" is, forgive me, simply ludicrous. This seems to be just another example of boomers claiming that they are so much more incredibly wonderful than anybody else. This is the essence of boomeritis, in my opinion [see chapter 2 in A Theory of Everything ].

    Shambhala: But you do have many good things to say about Ray's research.

    KW: Yes, what Paul Ray has done is identify the green meme, the cultural creatives, with their many variations and subgroups. But the cultural creatives are not an integral culture--in fact, as we have seen, the green meme or the cultural creatives are what are actually preventing an integral culture--they will destroy or deconstruct anything second tier that they happen to run into.

    But the cultural creatives can become a truly integral culture , IF they vertically transform to yellow or second-tier consciousness. Now the boomers have been at the green meme for almost three decades. The extremely positive benefits of this green-meme consciousness are numerous and profound: the green meme brought us much of the civil rights movement, feminism, environmental protection, and health care freedom.

    But the downsides have been equally far-reaching: extreme or deconstructive postmodernism (as opposed to constructive postmodernism, of which I am a strong advocate--see MSS); politically correct thought police; the complete dumbing down of the educational system in order to avoid those nasty grades and ranking; the pervasive erosion of first amendment rights (when green-meme individuals are asked which is more important, freedom of speech or preventing freedom of speech so as to not hurt somebody's feelings, a majority alarmingly choose the latter--in other words, the right to free speech would be replaced by the right to not have your sensitive ego bruised--and this abrogation of first-amendment freedoms is now standard policy at many centers of higher education--an example of the mean green meme in action).

    One of the real problems with green is that, as Don Beck says, "Green has to have victims." And so it has to see everybody as either an innocent victim or a wicked oppressing force. Thus, where the blue meme blames the victim, the green meme creates victims, by the droves, and then trumps up charges for those it imagines are the great oppressors. At West Point, for example, if a man looks at a woman for longer than seven seconds, he is guilty of sexual harassment and the woman has been victimized. I mean people, please, get a grip. This is behind so much of the "victim chic" that has become so fashionable in cultural studies, which erodes self responsibility, demonizes so much of life's unavoidable messiness, and, saddest of all, trivializes the real victims of real oppression.
    Here's a detailed, colored version of the spiral idea:



    And here's a simplified, non-colored version of the same:



    Our current political setting of Liberals vs Conservatives is essentially the Green (Post-Modernist) vs the Orange (Modernists [Libertarians/Fiscal Conservatives]) and Blue (Traditionalists [Religious/Social Conservatives]) memes.

    Interestingly, Nietzsche's master morality vs slave morality is essentially a conflict between the Red (Warrior) and Blue (Traditional) memes.

    Pretty neat little system if you ask me; I'm probably gunna start a thread on it.

    I've called myself a post-post-modernist since college.

    Rather fitting, then, that I keep finding myself reading more and more authors whose work is referred to as "integral".

  2. #22
    RETIRED CzeCze's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    [heavily edited] Dinosaurs walked with mankind, but only starting 6000 years ago, etc.
    So, roughly paraphrased, all that and the article linking lower IQs and conservative beliefs with racism means we're all doomed?
    “If you want to tell people the truth, make them laugh, otherwise they'll kill you.” ― Oscar Wilde

    "I'm outtie 5000" ― Romulux

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  3. #23
    Freaking Ratchet Rail Tracer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzeCze View Post
    So, roughly paraphrased, all that and the article linking lower IQs and conservative beliefs with racism means we're all doomed?
    I'm confused, that quote is from another thread and not a quote from me right?

  4. #24
    Senior Member Jaguar's Avatar
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    Spirals and dinosaurs. This place is entertaining.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Is anybody here familiar with the work of Ken Wilber?

    I've been aware of the guy for a while now, but have never really read his work.

    Anyway, I was reading an interview with him today, and it's amazing how well it maps onto this discussion.

    It's a very interesting interview, and I recommend you check the whole thing out: http://wilber.shambhala.com/html/int...iew1220_3.cfm/

    Anyway, to summarize: he works with a model known as spiral dynamics, originally posited by psychology professor Clare Graves.

    The theory posits different levels of evolution of human consciousness, and color codes them as such:



    These threads always read like Greens attacking Blues, which is exactly what Wilbur says Greens do in the article I posted above.



    Here's a detailed, colored version of the spiral idea:



    And here's a simplified, non-colored version of the same:



    Our current political setting of Liberals vs Conservatives is essentially the Green (Post-Modernist) vs the Orange (Modernists [Libertarians/Fiscal Conservatives]) and Blue (Traditionalists [Religious/Social Conservatives]) memes.

    Interestingly, Nietzsche's master morality vs slave morality is essentially a conflict between the Red (Warrior) and Blue (Traditional) memes.

    Pretty neat little system if you ask me; I'm probably gunna start a thread on it.

    I've called myself a post-post-modernist since college.

    Rather fitting, then, that I keep finding myself reading more and more authors whose work is referred to as "integral".
    That sounds like bullshit of the highest order.

    Wait, wait, wait! I can smell it coming...this is first-tier reaction to an "integral" thinker, right?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    That sounds like bullshit of the highest order.
    Bullshit is in the eye of the beholder. (not really -- and, as an Integral thinker, I understand this; hence, my long-held position on "flabby relativism")

    And I wouldn't expect a Sensor to understand this stuff anyway...


    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    Wait, wait, wait! I can smell it coming...this is first-tier reaction to an "integral" thinker, right?
    Well, yes.

    And you would be one of the most blatant Greens I could think of.


  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Thanks for all that. I think it's time to call it a night, though, before everything goes to pot...
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ... I saw the Texas Republican party's official statement on gays "destroying the fabric of society" earlier today, but missed their stance against higher-order thinking skills. It's pretty amazing that they feel comfortable enough to just come right out and stress that up front. But I guess it's a good thing, because then people can see what they truly represent at least...



    yeah. That's how much they've inbred. They don't realize how stupid they sound saying stuff like that.
    My god. Is this real? I mean, they aren't even bothering with coded language anymore. And this is from the official party website?

    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  10. #30
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    ... I saw the Texas Republican party's official statement on gays "destroying the fabric of society" earlier today, but missed their stance against higher-order thinking skills. It's pretty amazing that they feel comfortable enough to just come right out and stress that up front. But I guess it's a good thing, because then people can see what they truly represent at least...
    But they will lack the critical thinking skills necessary to recognize it for what it is.

    What will these dimwits do next: come out against science fairs?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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