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  1. #261
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    That sounds suspiciously like a gun owner's platform. The institution of gun ownership isn't to blame, it's individual gun owner's who kill their children. And likewise, it isn't the screwed perceptions this society maintains of education in general that's to blame, IT'S THE FRIKKEN TEACHERS!

    The solution is obvious: more guns in schools. Give students the right of concealed carry. Teachers would never know who was armed and grades would surely rise. Hell, just have a firefight at the end of semester. You live, you pass.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

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  2. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    That sounds suspiciously like a gun owner's platform. The institution of gun ownership isn't to blame, it's individual gun owner's who kill their children. And likewise, it isn't the screwed perceptions this society maintains of education in general that's to blame, IT'S THE FRIKKEN TEACHERS!

    The solution is obvious: more guns in schools. Give students the right of concealed carry. Teachers would never know who was armed and grades would surely rise. Hell, just have a firefight at the end of semester. You live, you pass.

    Objection... relevancy your honor.

  3. #263
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Relevance? Maybe none. It just occurred to me that there may be identifiable sources to some of the political arguments that get made. Republicans don't want to challenge gun ownership too much for whatever reason, and we know that's suspicious in some way, but did we know that when they use the same kind of argument in discussions of education then we can be suspicious of their motives in some similar way?

    For example, maybe Repubs don't want to challenge gun ownership because really, deep down, they're immensely traditional and the American nation was founded on, among other things, gun ownership. They know that if anyone questions traditional rights, then the nation is lost. So, questioning the traditional right to education means probably you're some kind of Commie and if you're not working to make the nation great through education, then you are definitely some kind of subversive. And since that rot arrives from within, how can it not be the teachers that are to blame?


    /outside agitator aligned with a non-American nation
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  4. #264
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Or to put it another way: it's not that teachers are failing to work to the adequate standards set by the expectations of society; it's the ill-formed malignancy of society itself asking in ignorance for more and more.

    Education is an industry? Take a look at any industry you like. NONE OF THEM FUNCTION ADEQUATELY. CAPITALISM IS AN AD HOC ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE AND BUSINESS IS A LIE!
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  5. #265
    Member Musicallogic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Or to put it another way: it's not that teachers are failing to work to the adequate standards set by the expectations of society; it's the ill-formed malignancy of society itself asking in ignorance for more and more.

    Education is an industry? Take a look at any industry you like. NONE OF THEM FUNCTION ADEQUATELY. CAPITALISM IS AN AD HOC ORGANIZING PRINCIPLE AND BUSINESS IS A LIE!
    The American education system is a government enforced monopoly. To put it in the same realm as a free market industry is just silly. Capitalism (defined as a free market) by definition cannot be ad hoc. Free Markets arise out of a LACK of an organizing principle. The more you "organize" a market the less efficient it becomes. If you are using some ambiguous definition of "capitalism" having to do with the man beating down the hippies, none of this will make sense to you anyway.

  6. #266
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    There are other reasons it wouldn't make any sense to me too.

    But with "ad hoc" I was naming the effect rather than the essence, and thereby starting down a path meant to undermine the supposed value of using business management philosophies in the organisation of the practice of education in modern life. Free market philosophies and industry development models are, it is presumed, sources of efficiency, and if we overlook the ragged history of all business and the real costs they end up imposing, then, indeed yes, efficiency arrives. But efficient what?

    Competition between educational services does not create better educational services. It cannot possibly. You'd need the majority of the population of service consumers to be capable of consuming the better educational services. If they weren't, why would any other than a niche service provider aim for the high level? And there's your efficiency.

    It'd work if the market weren't so bloated. It'd work if people just didn't send off for an educational package in the zombie-like aspirational mode of so many of the consumers. Or maybe it'd work if the industry were genuinely able to start making clearer promises on a connection between their package and your future life results. But how many people did ever get work related to their major?

    There are just too many people.
    Bellison uncorked a flood of horrible profanity, which, translated, meant, "This is extremely unusual."

    Boy meets Grr

  7. #267
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Musicallogic View Post
    The American education system is a government enforced monopoly. To put it in the same realm as a free market industry is just silly. Capitalism (defined as a free market) by definition cannot be ad hoc. Free Markets arise out of a LACK of an organizing principle. The more you "organize" a market the less efficient it becomes.
    Thus making the market the only thing in the universe that becomes less efficient the more it is organized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Musicallogic View Post
    If you are using some ambiguous definition of "capitalism" having to do with the man beating down the hippies, none of this will make sense to you anyway.
    Look, the problem with the whole pure free market thing is that it only really makes sense in a world where there are no preexisting conditions and no evolution of the market system after it's started.

    More realistically, if you attempt totally free markets, they will be deregulated (or is it disorganized?) in a situation that still contains countless environmental inequalities and residual trends from whatever the previous system was which will interfere with the ability of markets to actually be free, independent, unfettered, competitive, whatever you want to call it.

    Secondly, if you could some how create an environment of totally unfettered and fully competitive markets, it would be quite temporary. There would be winners and losers, and the winners would become king of the hill. They would amass power allowing them to manipulate the rules for all newcomers then on. The original round of winners will themselves be laying down the market regulations. In other words, markets are self-organizing in a way that does promote continued fair competition.

    Now, I'm honestly not sure if that is 100% relevant to your point in the context of this thread, it's just that as soon as I see the same old crap about free markets, I have to interject.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  8. #268
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    And you know, if the specter of privatizing education is going to rear its head here, let me make a point.

    Right now, if someone has kids in school, they are in a school that receives money from everyone old enough to pay taxes, including those who don't have kids in school (or have kids in a private school), and the people who pay more into the tax system (generally richer people) are also paying more into the school system. If this were not the case, and schools functioned more like a typical private enterprise, then all the funding for a given school is going to come out of the pockets of whoever has kids attending it, presumably at a fixed fee. Do you know how much more expensive that would be than what you're paying in taxes to fund school? It gets worse though, because our current private schools would pretty much remain the same, which is to to say that they'd be enclaves of rich and upper-middle class people. Because they'd have the ability to shell out more cash for better quality they would, combined with the fact that rich almost always deliberately separate themselves from the poor. This means that the private schools left over for most people would be even less funded that my formulation at first suggests.

    Like most privatization schemes, this will increase the quality of service for only a small, privileged group, and the plurality of the population will receive a decline in quality of service.

    Even if I took it to be true that public schools were less efficient than private schools, I think that inefficiency is probably a worthy price in order to an education to millions of people might otherwise not even have it.

    Incidentally, one of our current problems in education is due to wealth inequality anyway. Because education is usually funded with property taxes, the quality of schools is very regionally segregated. Good schooling correlates with high property value correlates with rich people.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  9. #269
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    The links in the first post remind me of Charlotte Iserbyt's research and book > " The Deliberate Dumbing Down Of America"

    PDF link > http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com.../DDDoA.sml.pdf

  10. #270
    Member Musicallogic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    Incidentally, one our current problems in education is due to wealth inequality anyway. Because education is usually funded with property taxes, the quality of schools is very regionally segregated. Good schooling correlates with high property value correlates with rich people.
    On this point you are simply incorrect. Teachers unions and government management are making our students some of the lowest achievers in the industrialized world. Have you looked at anything about the New Orleans school system since Hurricane Katrina? They implemented a voucher system and gave parents a choice of privately run schools. The test scores and graduation rates have gone through the roof. (Especially in the extremely poor areas) Although I think there is a way to completely privatize schools and still provide an education for everyone, I would happily support a voucher system anywhere and everywhere it could be applied. Having the government educating children leads to Texas teaching kids the earth is 6000 years old and critical thinking is bad. (Yes some private schools do that too but if there is competition parents have a choice to send their kids to schools that actually teach logic and science)

    To your points on free markets, you are correct that without some mechanism of enforcement, the big and powerful will steamroll the small. The government's role in a free market is to ensure that everybody plays by the same rules ie. they cannot violate another's property rights nor commit fraud. There also needs to be some way to mediate disputes. (our current civil court system) Neither of these government functions requires anything to be "regulated" in the current understanding of the term.

    The one thing of which I am absolutely certain is that my children will never attend a school run by the government.


    Kalach, what is your solution? Bring back the plague?

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