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  1. #251
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    While I'm certain teachers do support "getting out of the way and letting them teach" as you described, I'm not sure teachers generally support systems of greater teacher accountability.

    When you've been in a system where you would have to work pretty hard to get fired for years, I don't think you would support any changes to the system that would make it easier for you to get fired, and more specifically changes that would tie your evaluations to things like actual job performance as opposed to how long you've been on the job.
    Teachers have not yet seen a system of accountability that is worth supporting, for the reasons discussed above. The fact that this has soured many of them on the whole concept does not change the reality that no one has yet come up with a system that will achieve the desired result.

    Every teacher I know can describe colleagues who are essentially deadwood, doing the minimum to get by, using other teachers' tests, activities, etc. and contributing little to the workplace. They would like nothing more than to get rid of these non-performers and bring on some young, enthusiastic new blood. Teachers understand the need for accountability, but won't support a system that tries to hold them accountable for the wrong things, in the wrong way.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Teachers have not yet seen a system of accountability that is worth supporting, for the reasons discussed above. The fact that this has soured many of them on the whole concept does not change the reality that no one has yet come up with a system that will achieve the desired result.

    Every teacher I know can describe colleagues who are essentially deadwood, doing the minimum to get by, using other teachers' tests, activities, etc. and contributing little to the workplace. They would like nothing more than to get rid of these non-performers and bring on some young, enthusiastic new blood. Teachers understand the need for accountability, but won't support a system that tries to hold them accountable for the wrong things, in the wrong way.
    Well, I'm no teacher and as such only have cursory knowledge of the profession (compared to a professor).

    Given that you, and others here seem to have a greater level of industry knowledge, what do you guys think would be a good way off increasing teacher accountability?

  3. #253
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Accountable for what, though? Education as an institution doesn't just have a freight of aspiration, it has all the extra obligations societies, and parents, can and will palm off onto it. And it takes such a long time, people think it means something.

    I mean, consider, qualification inflation for employment in almost every industry has been with us for some time now. Can people seriously be believing that education fills all of those gaps? Or that it should? And it should work for every person who enters the education system?

    If teachers are going to be made accountable for such things, they should probably be elected to their positions and be given nation-sized budgets to work on them.
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  4. #254
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Accountable for what, though? Education as an institution doesn't just have a freight of aspiration, it has all the extra obligations societies, and parents, can and will palm off onto it. And it takes such a long time, people think it means something.

    I mean, consider, qualification inflation for employment in almost every industry has been with us for some time now. Can people seriously be believing that education fills all of those gaps? Or that it should? And it should work for every person who enters the education system?

    If teachers are going to be made accountable for such things, they should probably be elected to their positions and be given nation-sized budgets to work on them.
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  5. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Accountable for what, though?
    Their job performance.

    I thought that would have been obvious.

  6. #256
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    So, what's their job?

    Education as an industry does exist now. But if education is thought of as an industry and is understood to have a market, then understand, it's bloated with way too many over-promised consumers. This industry trades on the cachet, and the indeterminate unprovability, of "knowledge" when the only thing they genuinely can offer is "technical trades and professions".

    When you actually do get into the realms of teaching "knowledge", you are, and should be, at the extremes of the market--the children and the postgrads. However it would seem to be these days the bloated and expectant middle zone that sets the terms of the market. And they, at their parents and future employers behest, have been carrying this bloat over into the postgrad market for a while now. And then they give birth and start to want it for their children as well.

    Actually, I suppose it would be interesting to find out exactly how the schools did lose control of the market. Because they did. And now a whole range of people have some very mixed up ideas about what's possible. It'd be pretty damn interesting if it turned out these mixed up ideas were a product of modern education itself!

    (They're not, though.)
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  7. #257
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    There's a bit of a surprise waiting in worldwide grading standards, I think.

    I was going to say that part of a teacher's job is to work out what a "C" is and then make sure most of the students can get there. But I looked up those standards and discovered in a lot of countries even a D is a pass. I assume this means (since, really, a D should mean "inadequate grasp" and F should mean "nothing relevant to grade") the teacher's job has come to be the promoting of a minimum familiarity with the classroom material in the student, and while it is desirable to promote excellence, those students less than excellent aren't meant to fail.

    It's like built in that education is about acquaintance rather than excellence, and it's more or less guaranteed that the customer will exit with a sense of the system failing to qualify him.
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  8. #258
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    Their job is to teach the last time I checked.

    The dumb kids in other countries do better than our dumb kids.

    There is no excuse for our test scores not being better than they are.

  9. #259
    Filthy Apes! Kalach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiscoBiscuit View Post
    Their job is to teach the last time I checked.

    The dumb kids in other countries do better than our dumb kids.

    There is no excuse for our test scores not being better than they are.
    Do people still vote for that kind of rhetoric? I guess they must.
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  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalach View Post
    Do people still vote for that kind of rhetoric? I guess they must.
    We spent more money for a poorer result.

    Certainly there are issues within the system beyond teachers control.

    But the teacher has the most direct impact on the kids, and as such is certainly responsible for a sizable percentage of the problem.

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