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  1. #191
    Ginkgo
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    We should all be authorities and just say it like we sees it.

  2. #192
    right on the left wing Philosorapteuse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor
    At our mother's knee we learn our mother-tongue, our native language. And at our mother's knee we learn our religion.

    In primary school we learn our culture by learning to read and write.

    And in secondary school we deepen our knowledge of our literate culture.

    But in tertiary education we learn to critique our literate culture.

    So critical thinking is not called for at our mother's knee or in school, but is de rigueur in university.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We all learn to speak our native language naturally at our mother's knee, but almost all of us are compelled to go to school by law to learn to read and write.

    In other words, learning to speak is intuitive while learning to read and write is counter-intuitive.

    And critical thinking is counter-intuitive because it cause cognitive dissonance which is emotionally painful.

    Also critical thinking is counter-intuitive because it is a critique of literacy and literate culture.

    And naturally those who have not learnt to think critically console themselves with the illusion that critical thinking can be developed naturally, when critical thinking is anything but natural.
    But surely just because even if this is the case re: education (and I don't think it is, FWIW), that doesn't mean that's necessarily how it ought to remain. We did literary criticism and critical thinking-related things in high school, and I truly think it's among the most valuable things I ever learned. Is this just my INTPness? I truthfully don't understand why critical thinking would be in some way painful and counter-intuitive in and of itself, as opposed to the issues it gets applied to, which can indeed be painful. Is "counter-intuitive" saying what you want it to say here? Is maths counter-intuitive, or physical sports? A skill that needs to be learned doesn't necessarily have to run counter to our intuition, just not to exist in us prior to instruction (which I'm not sure is the case with critical thinking.) Would "not innate" or "not instinctual" maybe work better? Critical thinking's the most natural thing in the world to me, much more so than accepting what I'm told because I'm told it. Is this just typeclash?
    "A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely rearranging their prejudices." --William James

    I'd be a card-carrying sensotard, but I can't find the goddamn card.

  3. #193
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We all learn to speak our native language naturally at our mother's knee, but almost all of us are compelled to go to school by law to learn to read and write.

    In other words, learning to speak is intuitive while learning to read and write is counter-intuitive.

    And critical thinking is counter-intuitive because it cause cognitive dissonance which is emotionally painful.

    Also critical thinking is counter-intuitive because it is a critique of literacy and literate culture.

    And naturally those who have not learnt to think critically console themselves with the illusion that critical thinking can be developed naturally, when critical thinking is anything but natural.
    Whatever illusion helps you sleep at night my friend.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #194
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We all learn to speak our native language naturally at our mother's knee, but almost all of us are compelled to go to school by law to learn to read and write.

    In other words, learning to speak is intuitive while learning to read and write is counter-intuitive.

    And critical thinking is counter-intuitive because it cause cognitive dissonance which is emotionally painful.

    Also critical thinking is counter-intuitive because it is a critique of literacy and literate culture.

    And naturally those who have not learnt to think critically console themselves with the illusion that critical thinking can be developed naturally, when critical thinking is anything but natural.
    Hogwash. We learn to speak by osmosis, and some of us learn to read that way, too. Similarly, some of us learn to play musical instruments by a step-by-step linear learning process, and some of us learn more intuitively, or "naturally". How we learn something -- whether speaking, reading, dancing, violin playing, or anything else -- is more a function of our individual learning style and how we are taught than the subject itself. It is a reasonable conjecture that we learn "intuitively" when the teaching style matches our preferred learning style. When we learn something by immersion, as with our native tongue, we see it daily through a variety of styles, hence each is able to learn it in his/her own way.

    Furthermore, critical thinking does not require literacy, or a literate culture to critique. All it requires is observations of the external world, and a readiness to question when what we are told (orally, in writing, or otherwise) appears to contradict that.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #195
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Hogwash. We learn to speak by osmosis, and some of us learn to read that way, too. Similarly, some of us learn to play musical instruments by a step-by-step linear learning process, and some of us learn more intuitively, or "naturally". How we learn something -- whether speaking, reading, dancing, violin playing, or anything else -- is more a function of our individual learning style and how we are taught than the subject itself. It is a reasonable conjecture that we learn "intuitively" when the teaching style matches our preferred learning style. When we learn something by immersion, as with our native tongue, we see it daily through a variety of styles, hence each is able to learn it in his/her own way.

    Furthermore, critical thinking does not require literacy, or a literate culture to critique. All it requires is observations of the external world, and a readiness to question when what we are told (orally, in writing, or otherwise) appears to contradict that.
    This ignores the extent to which our observational and interpretive capacities are conditioned in the first place. Also, how can one question what one is told in writing if one is not literate?
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  6. #196
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Whatever illusion helps you sleep at night my friend.
    We put children to sleep at night with fairy stories; and we put ourselves to sleep with the illusion that literacy comes naturally; with the illusion empathy comes naturally; and the illusion that critical thinking comes natually.

    To tell our children there are no fairies, and to tell ourselves that we had to be taught to read and write, and to tell ourselves that we have to be taught how to empathise, and to tell ourselve we have to learn to think critically, precipitates us into cognitive dissonace which is emotionally painful and an immediate threat to our self esteem.

  7. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    how can one question what one is told in writing if one is not literate?
    Quite so.

  8. #198
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    This ignores the extent to which our observational and interpretive capacities are conditioned in the first place. Also, how can one question what one is told in writing if one is not literate?
    The literate can questions things outside the part of their culture that depends on literacy. For that matter, the illiterate can question elements of "literate culture" presented in a medium they can understand, such as speech, drama, artwork, etc. I am not ignoring conditioning, but recognizing that people learn differently, and that the same material can be presented in different ways.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  9. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Hogwash. We learn to speak by osmosis, and some of us learn to read that way, too. Similarly, some of us learn to play musical instruments by a step-by-step linear learning process, and some of us learn more intuitively, or "naturally". How we learn something -- whether speaking, reading, dancing, violin playing, or anything else -- is more a function of our individual learning style and how we are taught than the subject itself. It is a reasonable conjecture that we learn "intuitively" when the teaching style matches our preferred learning style. When we learn something by immersion, as with our native tongue, we see it daily through a variety of styles, hence each is able to learn it in his/her own way.

    Furthermore, critical thinking does not require literacy, or a literate culture to critique. All it requires is observations of the external world, and a readiness to question when what we are told (orally, in writing, or otherwise) appears to contradict that.
    Music is a good case in point.

    For 200,000 years we made music in our spoken culture. So music was learnt by ear - it was not written down.

    But only a relatively short time ago we started to notate music - we started to write music down - we privileged the eye. This led to an explosion in music and music styles.

    And we notice the same thing with mathematics. Once we started to notate mathematics, mathematics exploded all the way to the Higgs boson.

    And we notice exactly the same thing with the alphabet. The alphabet privileges the eye and exploded us into the world as colonialists.

    And today we are going in the opposite direction - with the electronic media, we are starting to come to our senses, all our senses, and we are imploding to electronic tribalism in the global village.

  10. #200
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    We put children to sleep at night with fairy stories; and we put ourselves to sleep with the illusion that literacy comes naturally; with the illusion empathy comes naturally; and the illusion that critical thinking comes natually.

    To tell our children there are no fairies, and to tell ourselves that we had to be taught to read and write, and to tell ourselves that we have to be taught how to empathise, and to tell ourselve we have to learn to think critically, precipitates us into cognitive dissonace which is emotionally painful and an immediate threat to our self esteem.
    You misunderstood me. I see all of humanities 'reality' as an illusion for our own convenience.
    But since it is a nice fluffy illusion that the majority agree on and can share, I dont see the problem. I dont have to agree with all of it, but I dont have to be opposed to all of it either.

    I also dont subscribe the to 'anyone can do it' methodology of certain skills we 'must' learn because it is a necessary skill.

    But you also misunderstood my natural critical thinking point, I would say that there are people out there who are compelled to develop those skills as an eventual inclination and reaction to our culture of 'shoulds' and 'hads'.

    For a human being that IS natural; a reaction that inclines one to develop certain skills. Some shy away from it and others are drawn to it. Even if you do step back and see the whole pattern as being within this framework of determined reactions and skills, why is that a bad thing?

    The weird thing here is ive never thought literacy, empathy or anything such as that comes 'naturally' ive always believed that it is something you get taught, which it is as you quite rightly said. But of course as you also said, it is not a 'should' that we need to engage in.

    But the point here is that my definition of natural, in relation to humanity, is not the same as it is in relation to the rest of the planet. Our brains shunt us down collective pathways of archetypes and constructed mental systems which we turn into reality. A lot of which is to do with self-delusion; as is our nature.

    A person who possesses 'critical thinking' may be held back by an understanding of how everything he/she learns, does or even says is constructed by outward environment and conventional systems of education, or whatever other myriad influences you happen to consider, thus never knowing how anyone could ever define natural and becoming lost in a deterministic style of mental pressure which would forever loop around his/her mind compelling this person to point out the dangerously fragile relationships between our sense of realities and systems.

    But a person who becomes like that is just as trapped as those within the illusions of human perception, because that person is STILL a human being.

    They also miss the idea that this duality need not be such a trial, you can understand the illusion but still willingly engage in it. It isn't necessary to follow everything back on a deliberately self-unravelling quest to prove one's own superiority of insight.
    My perspective is that someone like that isn't getting out, he's/she's getting in, entangling him/herself in the strings that tie our fragile perceptions together.

    Of course im no critical thinker and never will be, but I appreciate it in others nonetheless. I can see your point that those induced to believe in critical thinking they dont possess will come across it as a cognitive dissonance, but that is not the entire story.

    But of course, this is just my personal illusion.
    Last edited by Cellmold; 07-08-2012 at 03:03 AM.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

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